Wesley

Bring your best plans for wiring. I'll supply a job without seeing your plans and we will see what happens.
I can find problems with your plans just by looking at them. 99.999999% of our projects are NOT track homes of any sort.

Here is our web address. New showroom just opened up in Florida.

http://www.avxonline.net

Dave

out of all of the variants of a home automation system, what always stays the same?

Change?

No let it die! please? I'm beggin

oex

Die! Hell, I'm having fun!

But, I do have much better things to do with my time!

Dave



This message was edited by DavidatAVX on 06/25/04 20:36.

Ok... another analogy.

You are about to drive a humvee through a mine field. Some pilons have been placed by Dick Gazinya and Hugh Jardon... a couple of mine sweepers. These pilons supposedly tell you where the mines are. Right next to you you have your own tools to locate the mines that are a much better solution but will take you a lot more time than just trusting Dick And Hugh. Do you drive ahead or do you use your tools?

In following another installer do you just hook your s--t up to his wiring or do you take the time to tone, trace and test and verify. No one in this industry that ends up with good results picks the prior course. I have found staples through wires causing shorts that were wired by some of the most reputable dealers around here. Obviously as custom installers we've all been there.

Wesley, I don't mean to be such a penis here... my tone is a little more sarcastic and cycnical than flaming but that can't be deciphered in type. I am sure you've spent countless hours on this and if all goes well then you deserve the rewards you reap. I, however, agree with the general consensus here that a "standard" will never be strictly followed and if it is adopted in the 2005 code it will be completely obsolete a year later unless it includes miles of thick blue smurf tube. Unless you are staring straight into a crystal ball you can not convince us... the group here on the front lines... that this will be of much benefit to us. We will be able to poke holes in your program rather easily if we are selling against it because we're not partners in it. If I can save Joe and Mary homeowner a thousand dollars that could translate into a new Maytag Drying Center or nice patio set by not running every conceivable available keypad wiring schemo... they're probably going to feel better about having me wire their house than a general contractor paying cheap labor or an electrician following instructions for the first time. Believe it or not, I've thought about the same thing. I've sent tech papers free of charge to local builders begging them to stop putting TV niches above gas fireplaces with nothing but a 110 outlet and a cable jack. I'd like to believe that a few of them listened. I, however, was too busy keeping income for food flowing and didn't have the luxury of time to pursue it like you do. I also didn't believe that I could make it happen and really be futureproof.

You are aware of how many builders have been on the short end of class action suits because their "smart homes" were dumb aren't you?.

Anyway... I've gone on a while and originally I wasn't even going to post. Like David though, I find this fun. And you still haven't said much about what the real opportunity for us is when the first bullets on your site inform prospective clients that they just don't f----g need us any more. Reality is that I still have much more disdain for AVAD's D2B program and big box stores claiming they have "Custom" install available than I do you and your plans... semi peace?

Wesley,

Got a few questions for you, if you please.

It seems to me, since I just left your website, that what you are really doing is creating a market for yourself and your services. I may be wrong, only you know for sure. This isnt really an uncommon concept. There are many industry veterans that have started consulting companies. I am not aware of any others that have decided to 'rewrite' the way things are done. I also wouldnt have believed that there was money to be made by doing this but....

I personally think you are wasting time and energy in your quest to create a futureproof wiring topology, since in just a few years wire will be obsolete. With the advances in wireless technology, power-line based broadband, satellite technology, etc. All of these 'new' technologies are based on a wireless system, to and inside the home. The IT industry is moving into the home markets with a vengance. The major players in automation are moving towards a wireless standard and since most quality consumer A/V gear now has a ethernet jack that incorporates control capabilities, we integrators can simply add a wireless access point and 'boom' we have control without wires. We wont need wire for control or intersystem communications, just for power and speaker level delivery, for now. I have already seen manufacturers producing speakers that have a ethernet base for delivery of line-level signals and require 110v locally for the built in amplification. Since wireless ethernet is so 'cheap' now, I dont think it will be much longer before speaker wire is obsolete. With the advancements in computer processing vs. battery lifespan, I dont think it will be muck longer before we wont have to worry about supplying power to user-interface devices. I think there are already basic standards in place for this, my copy of the NEC is on my desk at the office so I cant check right at the moment. I would recommend that you reconsider the "10 year guarantee". Structured wiring is on its way out. The average homeowner doesnt see the benefit and in reality neither do I. (Okay guys, my flamesuit is on). I built a small home @ 2 years ago and wired the hell out of it. In my quaint 1600sq.ft. home I have approximatly 3 miles of Cat5e, 14/4 with integrated Cat5e, full security prewire, full automation prewire(including wiring and equipment that allows me to 'grid' my home with pressure pads under the flooring), full lighting control, spa control, water systems monitoring, etc. This is all useless. The great thing about home owenership is that as soon as I get ready to 'add on' to my systems, I have to repair something or my wife wants to remodel. She is a fantastic woman but doesnt give a damn about a 'HA-home'. Most women dont. That in itself will halt most improvements to systems over time. I could have simply flamed you here but instead I thought that this train of thought might be of use to you. See, a standard might be a good thing but if the builders dont want to pay for it, if the consumer doesnt want to pay for it and no one adopts it, well, its just a useless standard at that point. I have wired thousands of homes in my area and of the ones that were prewired for future technologies, the consumer didnt want to use the wire in the walls because we wouldnt warranty the previously installed wiring. Instead they paid us to put in new wire so that they could have a warranty on the system as a whole. I see on your site that you are proposing that the wiring must be certified and you are going to document the 'as-built' wiring. How can you possibly travel to all 50 states and do site surveys, diagram as-built wiring and write the 'manual' that you are proposing? I guess that you have planned on 'partnering' with companies in major cities in each state to do this but why would a company share profits with you on a job when they are a)most likely documenting the job already, b)have to warranty the system in-house and c)answer to you if the job that you arent personally overseeing isnt done to your specs? In my experience, outside consultants are involved on a personal basis with every aspect of the job, personally overseeing the wiring, trim, prograamming and finish phases. I dont mind working with these guys, as they are usually willing to go to the client and handle any construction related changes, which of course there never are ;-)!

I will quit rambling now. Good luck in your venture.
Just my $1.50 but you may want to consider re-focusing your efforts on something that wont soon be outdated.

This message was edited by avgenius1 on 06/25/04 23:21.

Wasn't the IBM Home Director supposed to be some sort of standard? We were told by a builder that we should go and check this out and get certified. We assured him that our company would exceed any requirments to be a home director dealer. But out of interest I went anyway. During the one day training they talked about how the home director was being marketed to builders as a minimum standard for structured wire for their homes. Now builders in my area will be looking for "certified" Home Director dealers to wire. That was over a year ago and I haven't talked to any (other than the one that recommended it)builders that gave a damn.
I agree with the fact that an awfull lot of things we deal with can be dealt with via wireless ethernet, and over time more and more will come along.
We already use a number of devices that can transmit audio/video and HD via Cat5 (which is a standard)
So in some respects all your left with are the connections from the amplifiers to the speakers, which for 90% of the mainstream jobs out there use either 14ga or 16ga wire(another standard?)and most (not all) audio/automation keypads can be hooked up via Cat5.
So what does that leave you to "Standardize" in our industry?
Most responsible installers will run Coax, and in some rooms they may even run 2 coax for possible satellite combinations. As we go through some changes, it isn't that odd to want a cable box, and a satellite receiver. There are new services such as Voom TV for HD and who knows whats next. Some might say, why, you can just distribute HD signals or other TV signals throughout a house and only need one Cat5. Not all clients want their kids to have access to all channels. Along with those coax, you may also find a couple of Cat5. Need a phone line for the satellite box? As more digital services come along, it's only reasonable to guess what a data line might be for. Maybe average Joe will be along way from affording the costs of all these services, the second cat5 could just be his wireless access point, no you say..then how about an I/R port to control his house music system, so he doesn't have to get out of bed to turn it on or off. There, thats one jack in the master bedroom of our not automated, semi smart home. This isn't a high end customer, just a client that wants to have a few options open as technology changes. I haven't added the fact that I would also typically run the speaker wire from the keypad to behind the TV, then to the speakers.
Is this a Standard??? Do all designers, installers and professionals do this? I doubt it, I am sure some do a variation of this. I don't even do this on every job, there are alot of other "what IF's" that can determine what and how many wires I run to and from a TV location.
I do believe the Flames come from the fact that the idea of a standard that anyone could wire might work with builders that are doing 100's of homes at a time. Many of us here work on "custom" homes and don't want the builders we deal with to be given the idea that all our hard work designing and installing the "custom" systems for their clients, is now just a simple standard that anyone can do. It's not... Our clients are buying a custom house because they don't want something that everyone else has, and thus our systems require us to design them, to meet their needs. A simple standard will not work for these people. The scary part is that WM's idea could work for 82% (just a figure)of the track homes being built, and that could represent a heck of alot of money.
A final word from me... WM I agree that there is a market out there that could benefit from a wire scheme(not the market I work in). Coming up with a wire scheme for the average consumer buying an average home, and presenting it to builders would be a good idea. I think by using the term "Standard" you have ruffled the feathers of many people. A standard denotes that it should be used by all, in all projects. And I am sure you have seen and are aware that in the higher end, and custom market there can be too many variables.

AVDude, I believe you are correct with this prediction. The technology is here, it just needs to go through the process of integration. Look at Request Multimedia's "Java remote" for their servers. This is the future of the industry I'd bet. With WAP technology getting better daily, things will increasing begin to move in this direction. It won't happen overnight, but it is evolving.

This whole thread is ubsurd. There will never be a standard.

Oh, Wesley...
I have to take exception with a couple of your statements...

"some of you suffer from lack-of-vision syndrome"

Go talk to the independant a/v retailers who don't yet offer installation, while their lights are still on, they are the ones who are lack vision. We had the vision to see that retail was diminishing and we adapted a whole new industry that is an amalgamation of high end commercial sound contracting, a/v retail, and residential construction and has been the fastest growing segment of the a/v industry by far.

"I simply enjoy this industry and want to see it validified."

Thanks, we have been waiting for your validation.
Doesn't the fact that Fortune 500 companies like Microsoft, IBM, Siemens, GE etc. have been joining our industry in droves provide some validation for our little multi-billion dollar industry?? These companies, along with every company that has brought a structured wire panel to market starting with Elan and Channel Plus over 10 yrs ago, have tried and failed to do what you want to do as an individual.

"Most potential clients and adjacent industries out there see us as trunk-slammers, no better than hustlers."

Not true, I get referrals from other tradesmen that have worked around us than I do from the yellow pages, chamber of commerce, and the CEDIA site COMBINED.
By the way, I have been deeply involved with this industry for as long as it has existed, and haven't tried to market my own standard, so who are YOU calling a hustler??

"I encourage you to beat your architect or builder to the punch- master it before they do."

I would never say this directly to them, but the majority of the builders I work with have being effective at managing the building process in general.
You ever heard the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none"?? that was literally coined to describe builders. Even if they had greater ambitions, they would be better suited to taking over roofing, siding, flooring, drywall or other trades that they currently sub out, and already probably know how to do as well as the guys they hire. I think that they would branch out into those trades before they dive into this mess, especially if they have to start from square one with ten different books from ten different "experts" that offer ten different methods.

All that said, we contribute to and answer to our own amalgamation of the standards of the NEC, BICSI, NSCA, and then of course we have to change them each year to reflect the curve balls that the manufacturers throw us every year with new interfaces and different connectivity issues each season.

I learned long ago that consumer electronics manufacturers stay in business by changing things every couple years, obsoleting your current products to sell you new products to replace your fully functional, yet obsolete components.

Hmmm....maybe we should just bump this thread up once a month and people will keep arguing this dead thread for the next 10 years.

all of your base are belong to us

my response to all of this (one hour to go thru this thread...but funny and entertaining) My stats....started installing 8 tracks in 73...been in the business since.......

THIS DUDE IS SETTING UP HIS OWN SELF-SERVING SYSTEM.

ANY, AND I REPEAT FOR THE HARD OF READING... ANY PERSON THAT HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS BUSINESS KNOWS THAT THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY STANDARD. THE MANUFACTURERS WILL ADOPT A NEW STANDARD SO THE PAYING PUBLIC HAS TO GET THE "NEW" THING. THAT IS THE WAY OF TECHNOLOGY.
IF NOT, WHY CANT WE HAVE BLUE LASER NOW? CAUSE WERE NOT THROUGH SELLING ALL OF THE RED LASER........

Thanks to all of you who responded to this idiot.....sorry person of little knowledge. It made for some great reading on a day when I should be working.

Lol, I just noticed the "10-year futureproof guarantee" that comes with the above mentioned wiring standard. Why not just shoot for 30 or 40 years?

Why shoot for more than ten? His company will be put out of business in three to five years by people suing him because their installations are already out of date.

I just had to bump this thing again, it's so damn funny. I just read a few more pages of Wesley's site. Not sure if they were there at the beginning or they're newer. I've never read such outright bullsh*t and lies in my life! The entire web site is smoke and mirrors and the Emperor has No Clothes. Lots of outrageous claims that might confuse the average consumer with not a SINLGE (real) explanation of what the hell his "system" is or how it's going to accomplish all these things. It's guys like this that really drive down the industry.

Here are some of the things Wesley claims for his wiring "system" (I've added astericks near the more humorous claims):

***Plug-and-play ready environment***

***Can install any manufacturer’s system***

Standardized whole-house installation

Offers nine (9) full-scale subsystems [note from QQQ - boy, doesn't that sound sophisticated ;-)]

Enforced certification practices

***Accounts for furniture rearrangement***

Aesthetics prevail even when no electronics are installed

***Your current subcontractor can install***

***Switch subcontractors without starting over***

***No need for client interview***

Full documentation provided for every project and every client

***Most homeowners can install their own electronics***

Clients’ electronics can now relocate with them (note from QQQ - isn't that ALWAYS the case!!!)

***10-year futureproof guarantee***