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Topic:
EI going straight to builders with Lifeware
This thread has 350 replies. Displaying posts 301 through 315.
Post 301 made on Wednesday April 11, 2007 at 21:35
rlustig
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you daisy chain multiple Russound CAVs or CAMs, you only add zones. The number of sources stays the same. So Three CAV chassis gives a 6 source-18 zone system.

I think all of the integrators here would appreciate it if the Lifeware reps just talk about the capabilities of Lifeware. Don't inject disinformation (whether on purpose or accidental) about your competitors.

I asked a question long ago regarding a system that I have built with a large Vantage lighitng system (approx 140 loads). My question was, what do I get by layering Lifeware on top of my existing Vantage Infusion controller? The retail cost of the Lifeware license for just lthe lighting control seemed to work out to around 7 grand. What functionality do I gain that I don't already have with my Vantage controller?
Post 302 made on Wednesday April 11, 2007 at 22:12
AHEM
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On April 11, 2007 at 16:28, joshod said...
The best thing for you to do is locate a dealer in your
area, which can be found by looking on our website at
www.life-ware.com.

I absolutely can't stand it when...just to find a dealer, you're required to enter your name, address, phone number, email address, etc.

That seems like an open invitation for spam & unwanted phone calls. Why can't you just be straight and provide a dealer list?
Post 303 made on Wednesday April 11, 2007 at 23:16
Other
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Since I kind of re-instigated this....

AnthonyZ, I do think that was unprofessional. Beat up on the sales guys. Joshod is trying his best, and he may have just made an honest mistake. If he was ignorant and/or trying to be deceptive I don't think he'd be here.

Joshod, since you've put yourself out there as something of a spokesperson, what you need to understand here is that you and EI are going up against a lot of baggage. Every year there is a new company that comes into this industry trying to change it and telling the integrators that what they do is going to be obsolete overnight. Needless to say that ruffles a lot feathers. Most of those companies have failed. While there are some interesting aspects to LW, the pitch sounds familiar to a lot of us. There have also be a full list of stereotypes in this thread.

Yes, an X-Panel is one solution to using a non-crestron touch panel with a Crestron system, but its not the only one. Counting the video processors, and X-Panel Crestron has 9 different ways to integrate a non-crestron touch panel. Granted these are typically used for more expensive touchpanels (SMART Boards, etc.), but you could hook an ELO, Planar, 3M whatever up to them.

Yes, you have to use Crestron's processors, but their processers start at $550 retail.

Based on my understanding, LW is more about configuration than programming. Crestron has tried that with System Builder with limited success. We're supposed to start making our money off of services rather than hardware, but we're supposed to do that while losing our programming revenue?

EI touts itself supporting a wide variety of 3rd party hardware, so you can specify your own. I went to your web site and counted 38 manufacturers in your "connected partners" program. I started doing the same thing on Crestron's site and hit 38 about 1/3 of the way through the "C"s alphabetically. That's kind of what they do. I'm not counting 3rd party software modules, either, by the way.

Yes, they do offer their own lighting control, T-stats, etc., but there is also advantages to that approach. Yes it makes programming/configuration simpler, but it also gives a unified look and feel to the devices in the installation, from keypads to touchpanels to lightswitches to keypads. The integrator can choose to spec almost all crestron hardware or to spec very little Crestron hardware.

When you compare hardware (touchpanels, control processors), yours is more expensive than theirs at MSRP. That's comparing a PRO2, which is one step down from the top of the line dedicated processor to EI's LifeController, by the way.

Maybe its unfounded, but in my opinion it seems as though EI has yet to find an identity for itself. It's priced and seems to be being sold as a high-end solution, but on the other hand you're in Best Buy, which can't help but dilute the brand. To top that off with the DSC partnership touting how now anyone can "get into a rewarding new business very quickly with almost no learning curve," has got to ruffle some feathers. Russound is next, then Monster. This isn't directed at you personally, but at least have some respect for what we do and how we do it.

This is great for EI and I wish you guys the best. I think the LifeSupport business model is great for EI. I'm a huge proponent of recurring revenue and you need volume to make that work. It doesn't, however, seem to be great for the integrator.

I give you guys a lot of respect for putting your money where your mouth is with the offers you've made to those on this forum, and even more respect for the abuse you and Steve have taken and taken professionally.

I think EI has a lot of potential, but it has a long way to go. If you guys have backed off of the high end market to cut your teeth with the Best Buy and DSC projects, let Vista stabilize a little, and gain support for more 3rd party hardware beyond computers and standard computer peripherals, then that might not be a bad plan.

The key is that you need to give integrators a compelling reason from a business standpoint to take the time to learn your product and in a lot of ways re-learn what they do, re-establish partnerships, etc. For me, I haven't seen that.

Let's use DLewis as an example. What you suggested with the Russound system is a very standard approach. It positions them as the distributed audio company and you as the control company. That puts you head to head with Crestron/AMX, etc. and you aren't going to win that battle, at least not anytime soon.

I would have rather seen you dig a little deeper. We know he wants 11 zones of music, all with access to the same music and to be able to play different songs in each zone or the same song at a different place in each zone. Thats a classic example of streaming digital media in my mind. You answered the same question for RadioRahim asked a different way in one of the other threads. Use media centers, or extenders. The other option would be uPnP devices.

I would really have liked the next question to be "DLewis, is the capability to also play the same music in sync in many/all zones important to you." If not, the extenders/MCEs or simple appliances like a Roku could be a great solution. If so, they I would love to hear that you guys have wrapped a nice interface around slimserver to make it simple and intuitive in the same interface as the rest of LW. That's where you guys will have an edge. Take a completely different approach.

Another great example of this is the video. We know that DLewis wants 7 feeds of HD/SD to each room. We don't now why. We know some of it is live TV, but what is the rest? Are we talking about 7 different types of media, or are four of them cable TV? Is the ability to watch DVDs in different rooms really the ability to watch DVDs in different rooms or is it the ability to movies in different rooms? Why view this from an analog perspective around digital content? This could be another great application of extenders/mutiple MCEs and streamed digital content. Does DLewis really want a bunch of round silver coasters or maybe he just hasn't been exposed to CinemaNow, MovieLink, Netflix watch now, Mediadownloads.walmart.com, etc.

I've been following EI for quite a while now. The last meeting I had related to it left me frustrated as most have. I get that MCE/Windows based media distribution and control is a different approach. I get how powerful it is and how much potential it has. What I don't understand is what sets EI apart from comparable software companies, i.e. HomeSeer, mControl, cQc, In2, etc. and why there is such a hefty premium for it?

I had a rep recently tell me that his favorite part of LW was "Online Spotlight" I agree that Online Spotlight is cool and one of the keys to MCE, but come on... I asked another rep the same question about comparable software companies and got, "Well what matrix switches do they support?" I responded by asking what I'd want a matrix switch for in a digital media distribution environment.

Show me unique solutions, not your name stuck on a Pelham Sloane touch panel for twice the price. I have enough vendors doing that. You want to fill hardware niches, give me extenders. Give me sideshow devices. No one else is going that. I can find 100 companies offering me touchpanels and XP-embedded computers.

There are integrators that get MCE and get how to make windows stable. Now tell me why you are the best software solution for my business. I don't see EI as a Crestron/AMX competitor, at least not yet.

Don't tell me because you support standards. RS232, RS485, IR, zigbee, Z-Wave, etc. are all standards, too, and the incumbents support them with or without 3rd party hardware. Why is WSD better? Why do I care if I have to convert it all to IR or RS232 anyway? Why are there more manufacturer's in our space that are supporting everything but WSD?

Don't tell me it's because you support more 3rd party hardware when you only support a fraction of what the incumbents do. Don't tell me its because you are lower cost, and please don't tell me it's because you are telling every big box and security company they can "get into a rewarding new business very quickly with almost no learning curve." Take a look at any of the other threads on this forum and tell me how your average security guy or big box for business customer service guy is going to fare with those topics? Most of those aren't even the complicated ones.

Not to pick on you specifically, but that cascading Russound thing is a perfect example. In the IT world that would make perfect sense to gain inputs and outputs when you link/cascade something. What if that was one of EI's "no learning curve" partners that had sold that to a customer? Do you go back and tell them that they have to buy all new hardware and complete rewire their system now? I had a very similar experience going into clean up the mess left by one of the "we can do, too" It companies in a major installation. They wired a quickmedia matrix like it was an Ethernet switch and couldn't figure out why nothing worked. Programming control systems isn't all we do. Its one small piece of it.

Joshod, this isn't directed at you personally by any means. I'm very interested in what you have to say and what EI has to offer. I think the opportunities for the right solution in that space are tremendous. That is why I resurrected this forum. I just haven't haven't seen a compelling reason to make EI/LW a part of my business yet, and many reasons not to. Those aren't misconceptions. I understand the product. I understand the MCE environment, along with embedded appliances, media servers, uPnp, WSD, commodity hardware, etc. Believe me, I have many frustrations with the incumbents in this industry. I have on the other hand seen reasons to make MCE a part of my business. There are a few missing pieces, but its very close to being very relevant. I understand and in many ways support the paradigm. Give me real reasons to want to support EI as part of it.

In the meantime, please realize that if EI wants me and other integrators to respect what they do, respect what we do. If the concept that you guys are building a farm club for real integrators is true and you aren't just aren't just using us and whomever else will write that check for the opening order and sign for the annual commitment to build your own LifeSupport recurring revenue stream base and the systems are stable & the support & service are there (i.e. the whole experience), then great. Exposure is good for this industry. Understand, though that you can do as much damage as you can good to this industry with this strategy and that is going to make a lot of us very skeptical. The last thing we need is another new company touting themselves as the best thing since sliced bread and giving another customer or another builder another bad experience with half-baked home electronics system installations.
Post 304 made on Wednesday April 11, 2007 at 23:31
dlewis
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Other, is it possible for me to contact you directly? Thanks.
Post 305 made on Thursday April 12, 2007 at 00:22
Other
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Sure. I'll send you an email.
Post 306 made on Thursday April 12, 2007 at 00:45
Conundrum
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On February 20, 2007 at 22:04, AHEM said...
I've learned a lot from this "blog". I really have.
Here's what I take away from it.

1. Windows is an incredibly stable operating system.
It's mostly stupid people who don't know how to use it
that muck it up.

2. All of you custom guys should quit selling custom
interfaces and start giving your customers what they really
want.

3. Best Buy is great for my business.

4. Barry's jacket is still head and shoulders above the
pack.

5. The world's best HA system is also the one that I
just installed into my own

house....yesterday.

6. Microsoft really cares about me. They just have a
strange way of showing it.

7. HP's support center really isn't in Bhopal. They're
actually Americans who have been cleverly trained to have
Indian accents.

8. It's my first day!

I barely made it this far in the thread, but this one gave me the stamina to go on. AWESOME!

Last edited by Conundrum on April 12, 2007 02:17.
Post 307 made on Thursday April 12, 2007 at 10:53
PHSJason
Advanced Member
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994
Josh,

Here is the spec:
[Link: remotecentral.com]

What I am most interested in is the parts list of what it takes to make this system work. If EI doesn't make the hardware, then what will work? Please take the approach of "I am a new dealer calling EI and asking about a control system for an existing system, here are the requirements". As a prospective dealer, I am curious what it will take to integrate EI into this system. I know this is a small system, but our take is that if you can't meet our client's wants/needs on small basic systems, then there is no way in hell we will use the product on a large system. Basic/simple requirements like the requested 2-way feedback don't go away on larger systems, they become more important. So can you build it, and what will it take? IF EI doesn't make the hardware, then please list a manufacturer/model number(no price as you are not supplying) that you would reccommend for a specific part. Please don't just say "you can use anyone's keypad", I would like at least one specific part number that will work as requested. Once again, treat me as a new dealer needing some guidance. I would assume that if a dealer called in with a question about what hardware to spec in with you software, you would give them some model #'s that you know will work and not just tell them to go google "keypads".

From there, what is the MSRP of all parts/software/licensing provided from EI?

As a seperate line item, lets discuss programming hours. What is your "estimation" of the hours required to program this system?

I hope this isn't some ultra-difficult challenge I have presented. I can spec this system with AMX in under 5 minutes. I am sure the Crestron guys can as well. If you like, for that sake of fairness, I'll post the AMX system at retail that will do this job and maybe we can get a Crestron guy to take a stab at it as well, so we can have a true three-way comparison. maybe we can even get an ELAN dealer to work it up as I have the feeling Elan can do this as well. Ball is in your court.

Jason
Post 308 made on Thursday April 12, 2007 at 11:03
dlewis
Long Time Member
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If you like, for that sake of fairness, I'll post the AMX
system at retail that will do this job and maybe we can
get a Crestron guy to take a stab at it as well, so we
can have a true three-way comparison. maybe we can even
get an ELAN dealer to work it up as I have the feeling
Elan can do this as well. Ball is in your court.

Good idea Jason. I wish the same could be done for my specifications (quoting out AMX, Crestron, EI and HomeLogic)...
Post 309 made on Thursday April 12, 2007 at 13:53
tschulte
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Let me just say, I have tried to keep up with this thread, and it has been difficult. I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't do Crestron/AMX or Lifeware. I have been to the trainings, and frankly was not impressed with the offerings and expecially the price.

Joshod, you say you deserve respect. Why? What have you shown here that we should automatically give you respect? I have been posting here for over a year, and I don't think I deserve respect from anyone. In this place, of all places on Earth, you have to EARN respect. So far, you haven't earned anyone's respect.

Like I said, I don't do Crestron, but I knew from the start your statement was wrong. You never apologized for that, you just talked about the Lifeware portion of you statement and that is not what AnthonyZ had an issue with. Now, he may have personally attacked you, but in this place (specifically the CI Lounge) you are giving one chance (and only one chance) to correct yourself. You had that chance and didn't use it. I will tell you that I have been here long enough to know it takes a lot to push his buttons, but you did.

Other, I don't know who you are, but MAN was that a great post!
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Post 310 made on Thursday April 12, 2007 at 14:38
rlustig
Advanced Member
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915
tschulte, you say you don't have a dog in this fight, so something must have changed in the last 6 or 8 months. Last year you were pretty high on Lifeware and bought an HP MCE machine, signed on as a dealer and seemed pretty gung ho about the future with Lifeware. What happened?

Your experiences with this product and your reasons why you have dumped it would be a very interesting post. I think many on here would like to know what changed your mind. BTW, my info as to your past thoughts comes from posts over at IP.
Post 311 made on Thursday April 12, 2007 at 14:51
tsvisser
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there is respect that is earned and then there is respect that is due between civil people having a civil conversation.... both are really figments of the imagination, however, and different people have different perspectives on what that respect might entail. AnthonyZ, didn't really cross over any boundaries, in my opinion, and is a good man for acknowledging jshod's feelings - which do deserve merit. this is not a blog, and it seems to tread the boundaries of a professional forum and an public internet "hangout"... it is populated by professionals, but there are no controls put in place to groom it one way or the other, nor should there be - as any controls would not ultimately be effective.

i would approach this as a conversation with professionals... but in a casual context. everyone can take off their hats and on the surface everyone's opinion seems to have the gloss of expertise and experience. it is magic - in that the wire puller can talk in the same context with the CEO of a major CI company. with this in mind, you can and should filter what you read and be less concerned with ultimate truth or establishing who is full of "BS" and who are experts... no one here is entirely one or the other, except for QQQ, who likes to pose as an expert, but is really paid by someone (who? - is a good question) as judging by his posting habits, I have determined that it is impossible that he actually has a real job.
[Link: imdb.com]
Post 312 made on Thursday April 12, 2007 at 18:31
tschulte
Advanced Member
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On April 12, 2007 at 14:38, rlustig said...
tschulte, you say you don't have a dog in this fight,
so something must have changed in the last 6 or 8 months.
Last year you were pretty high on Lifeware and bought
an HP MCE machine, signed on as a dealer and seemed pretty
gung ho about the future with Lifeware. What happened?

I will admit I was very optimistic about Lifeware when I was first presented with it, but once I went to the "training" and realized how much it would cost, I quickly changed my mind. I do believe that it is a good product, but I don't believe it will do what dlewis asks for. I think there is a market between Crestron/AMX and HAI, etc. that is not being fulfilled, if EI's pricing was a little better they could have a piece of that. Instead, it seems that they are trying to compete head to head with the intrenched incumbants.

As far as the HP machine I am still gung ho about that, and think HP is making a HUGE mistake by getting out of it.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Post 313 made on Thursday April 12, 2007 at 22:01
AHEM
Select Member
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On April 12, 2007 at 18:31, tschulte said...

I think there is a market between Crestron/AMX and HAI,
etc. that is not being fulfilled

Isn't that where Control 4 is supposed to be positioned?
Post 314 made on Friday April 13, 2007 at 04:25
QQQ
Super Member
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On April 11, 2007 at 19:00, joshod said...
I am not aware of any touchpanel
that works with Crestron other than their own without
the use of X-panel which also requires their processor.
No misrepresentation there.

It is misrepresentation.

Crestron has had the option of using other manufacturers touchscreen for YEARS, at least since 2000! 3M, ELO etc. You can even make a plasma TV a touchscreen.
[Link: crestron.com]
Now before you try to twist that into a negative befcause it (gasp) requires an interface, let me point out that you can also use any device that supports IE in which case no interface is required.

Also, you are trying to twist a positive into a negative. Why is the fact that Crestron offers multiple options a bad thing? With Crestron I can use a Crestron panel. I can also use a tablet PC or UMPC. Of course I have to use a Crestron processor, so what? Just like I have to use a processor with your system - in your case the processor is a PC.

One of the humorous things is that people who try to compete with Crestron who don't know anything about it always try to rail about how proprietary and locked in it is and how their stuff works on IP. Then you point out to them that Crestron has offered IP for YEARS and they jump to the next issue "well, with Crestron you have to use their expensive touchscreens". Wrong again. Now I see the argument has evolved to the fact "well, you can use a XPanel but you need a Cresron processor". Ridiculous.

Last comment - what competitors and people who are jealous of Crestron do not get is that people use Crestron touchscreens because they WORK and because they offer a broader selection that meets every need. People are perfectly free to use a pocket pc or what ever they want!

Last edited by QQQ on April 13, 2007 05:28.
Post 315 made on Friday April 13, 2007 at 05:30
QQQ
Super Member
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BTW Joshod,

Can I use a 3M or ELO touchscreen with Lifeware?
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