You most certainly do care grasshopper. You see, when a person loves to brag "I don't care what you think" it means exactly the opposite, and indicates that you have a need to let me know that you "don't care what I think". Which of course means you do care what I think. If you truly didn't care, you would not even bother to respond. So says Confucius.

But thanks for confirming the answer is *0*. Me an agitator? Surely you jest.

Coastal, you came on this board as a new member, coincidentall right in the middle of a large thread regarding this product, touting the greatness and superiority of Lifeware and MCE. If all your going to do is regurgitate the marketing materials from EI, and say this great, the other solutions suck,then you are nothing but a shill. The net is full of them. If, however, you are legit, then you could give some examples of how this product is working in the real world. And your own home and the home of the founder of EI don't count. Iwrote the first post asking about your companies experiences fully expecting to get the answer I got, nothing. Are you really a custom integration dealer or are you another EI employee?

Any other EI dealers out there that could add to this discussion?

QQQ - grow up. You belong in the AVS Forum were, surely, you would be treated like the god you so evidently think you are. Reality check - everyone's a god on the anonymous Internets.

Better yet - start a blog where you can rail on anyone and everyone you think is beneath you. That would be original.

I'm done with you.

rlustig: I don't understand what more you want. Do you want to take snap shots of all my installs and email them to you? I don't have time for that.

The only reason I posted at all was to relay my experiences with Media Center and Life|ware, which is eactly what I did. Do you want me to recount every single programming mishap? I can't remember them, but yes, I've had them. Have I ever had a system go down? Of course. Do I think the pricing structure is, at best, convoluted? Absolutely. To be honest, this is probably the biggest challenge I have - convincing clients to pay a licensing fee. That's a tough pill to swallow but I get through it. Trust me - if I had anything to do with it I would get rid of the licensing structure, but I also understand why they do it that way and how it can be beneficial for me in the way of recurring revenue.

I sell thusly - Good, Better, Best and I primarily market to builders. I'm working on a project now on a 12 home building site where my firm will install a system in the show house. Buyers will have a choice between a Good, Better and Best home automation package. That's it. I essentially only have three packages to program and I can duplicate the programming for each install. Not that much different from Creston AMX, Elan, etc. The difference for me is the finished product. I get to offer the home owner an easy to use product that aggregates all of their digital content (pictures, TV, movies, etc.) AND they can access the other functions of their house - all with one remote that is easy enough for them, the baby sitter, in-laws, neighbors, etc. to use. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE, PERIOD.

I'm not here to knock anyone's choice of HA platform. If it works for you - great. Sell it. If your cleitn likes it. Great - good for you.

CoastalHome,
it's your first day, but your credibility is ...
It was easy when you were praising EI, no problems there.
QQQ question is simple & valid (btw, I've never met QQQ), how many real world installs have you done? 1, 2, 5 or more?

Boy, for a guy who doesn't need to...


You sure are agitated. Tsk tsk.

Wow, it usually takes 1st Day Posters at least three days to get worked up to the point of blowing their stack, exploding and spraying a mixture of bile and gray matter all over the room. I'm impressed.

All five of them.

That's Mr. God to you buddy.

That's a key question. Let me guess the answer...

"Our (Your Name Here) system is so wonderful you just plug *everything* in and it auto-configures itself. Hey, this doesn't have to be rocket science."

OK, that's all well & fine, but who *does* do the dirty work of design & project management? This goes for new construction & retro-fit. I'm seeing:

* TV's installed above fireplaces with no provision for the correct cables. Hey, this looks cool! Now where do I put my cable box, DVD, Receiver, Speakers, etc.?

* Walls with multiple banks of un-engraved 5 gang light switches glowing red from heat buildup. WTF... what's de-rating? My (Your Name Here) switches are spec'ed to handle 1000 watts! What do mean there's a difference between Magnetic & Electronic Low Voltage? Why don't my compact flourescents dim?

* Un-workable cabinet sizing & layouts with no provisions for access, ventilation, expansion, etc.

* Blah blah blah... 900 other standard installation perils & pitfalls that I'm too lazy to type out.

I'm going to climb out on limb and predict that the Big Box guys and maybe even the transplanted IT guys *may* miss a *few* critical planning areas.

So tsvisser's question about what I consider a short-circuited design process is dead on. IMHO, the whole concept of a single-point-contact is also under estimated. Who gets the call when something doesn't work? That nice young Bob at Big Box?... he works at Spatula City now. MicroSoft?... do you have Bill's cell phone number? EI? HP? Your Builder? Your CI guy?

And yeah, before somebody posts "well that can happen with any CI product/installation", just save your fingers. Of course it can, but the difference is my whole business plan and all my design & installation processes are set up to avoid this crap. The business models that ignore or minimize this will generate enough havoc to keep a permanent sticky thread active.

This is a valid question for Coastal as, if you look at his posts you will find that he has remodeled his home and not prewired for DA yet states it will happen in the future. I am sorry but, that smacks of horse manure. No CI worth his salt would ever fail to run the cables when the walls were open when there was a possibilty of DA in the future. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that no CI worth his salt would ever fail to run the cables when the walls were open when there wasn't a possibilty of DA in the future. We know the value of resale. This is so basic. Any insight Coastal?

OK, I'll bite on the system design challenge thing(sort of). In this forum, by and large, we are all custom guys. We all know what our systems can do, the question here is what can your system do and how does it work in specific areas that we find important? With that in mind, how would EI handle the system I propose below? This is a ridiculously simple system with no lighting control, no distributed video(other than feeding two displays from one DVR). There are a lot of features that our clients have asked for like one button source selection, hold a button for off etc. Also, how does EI handle the product in this system that isn't in the current library(like the Epson 1080p Projector). I know you mentioned a few pages back that we can use some generic commands for items like the projector, but how do we get the feedback? If my spec is out of line from what other integrators do, I would be surprised. This is a system that we can do very easily in AMX. How would it work in EI?

No need to go with “private” discussions, we can keep the pricing to MSRP and keep this whole thing public. First question, can EI even do the system per the spec? Especially the source button requirements. If so, How much for the complete system including keypads, remotes, panels, controllers, power supplies, control labor, and programming? Are all the parts available from EI directly?



General Considerations:
1.All components are withing 50 wire-feet of main AV term, despite being located in different rooms.
2.Control system to be remote accessible for diagnostics/programming.
3.Unless otherwise specified, all control communications are serial.
4.Touch-panel background image(s) to be approved by client.


Distributed Audio Sources:
1.Denon DCM-390 5 disc CD changer.
2.Nuvo T2 AM/FM/XM Dual Tuner.
3.Cable Music from local cable CO DVR(shared source).

Distributed Audio Switching to be done by an AutoPatch Precis 8 x 8 LT with DSP audio switch. Control for all components except DVR and VCR is RS-232
Distributed Audio Amplifiers(2) to be Sonance Sonamp 1230s Amp power to be controlled by 12 volt trigger.
Panamax MAX-5410 pro power conditioner with 232 interface.
Panamax MAX-1500ups with 232 interface.
If power is lost for more than 20 seconds:
All components are turned off.
Power to amplifiers is disconnected.
If Power is lost for over 2 minutes:
Power is disconnected from all components except network components, and control system.
If Battery reaches critical level, all system turn off.
When Power is restored:
After 1 minute delay, systems are powered up one at a time until all systems are on-line.
Battery to be monitored by control system.



Room List:

Garage, Master Bathroom, Office.
1.One pair of speakers controlled by a basic keypad.
Keypad to have:
1.Volume +
2.Volume -
3.Mute with real-time feedback.
4.AM/FM source button. Single press selects source. Feedback LED to light solid when AM/FM source is selected, Feedback LED to blink when AM/FM source is selected in another zone.
5.XM source button. Single press selects source. Feedback LED to light solid when XM source is selected, Feedback LED to blink when XM source is selected in another zone.
6.5 CD source button. Single press selects source. Feedback LED to light solid when CD source is selected, Feedback LED to blink when CD source is selected in another zone.
7.Cable source button. Single press selects source. Feedback LED to light solid when Cable source is selected, Feedback LED to blink when Cable source is selected in another zone.
8.Off Button. Single press turns off Zone. Holding for 3 seconds turns all systems/sub-systems off. Feedback LED to light solid when Zone is Off, Feedback LED to blink for one minute when all systems are first turned off, then change to solid.
9.+ button. Depending on source controls Seek + on AM/FM, Seek + on XM, Track + on CD, Channel + on Cable. If cable is selected in Media Room, Keypads cannot over-ride.
10.- button. Depending on source controls Seek - on AM/FM, Seek - on XM, Track - on CD, Channel - on Cable. If cable is selected in Media Room, Keypads cannot over-ride.
11.Preset 1 button. Depending on source sets radio to “Preset # 1” on AM/FM, sets radio to “Preset # 1” on XM, Shuffle on CD, sets cable to “Preset # 1”on Cable. If cable is selected in Media Room, Keypads cannot over-ride.
12.Preset 2 button. Depending on source sets radio to “Preset # 2” on AM/FM, sets radio to “Preset # 2” on XM, Repeat on CD, sets cable to “Preset # 2”on Cable. If cable is selected in Media Room, Keypads cannot over-ride.


Kitchen, Office.
1.One pair of speakers controlled by an in-wall touch panel.
Touch-panel to be UL listed for in-wall installation.
Touch-panel to have:
1.Volume + available on all pages/sources except when zone is off with real-time feedback..
2.Volume - available on all pages/sources except when zone is off with real-time feedback..
3.Mute available on all pages/sources except when zone is off with real-time feedback..
4.Source/Off buttons to be available at all times on all pages.
5.All source buttons to be one-push application meaning all necessary changes to system including amp power, source power, audio switching, audio levels, EQ settings to be made from one button.
6.AM/FM source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that AM/FM is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that AM/FM is selected in another zone.
7.XM source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that XM is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that XM is selected in another zone.
8.5 CD source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that CD is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that CD is selected in another zone.
9.Cable source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that Cable is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that Cable is selected in another zone.
10.Off Button. Single press turns off Zone. Holding for 3 seconds turns all systems/sub-systems off. Button to change state/text to reflect that Zone is Off, Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that All Systems are currently Off
11.AM/FM Radio control page with the following controls:
Seek+
Seek-
Tune +
Tune -
AM Band
FM Band
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.
Real-Time feedback for current preset, current band, and current frequency.
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
12.XM Radio control page with the following controls:
Seek+
Seek-
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.
Number Pad for direct channel entry with an “Enter” button.
Feedback for direct channel entry.
Real-Time feedback for current preset, and Current channel Number.
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
13.CD control page with the following controls:
Play
Pause
Stop
Track +
Track -
Disc +
Disc -
Disc 1-5 direct selection
Random Disc
Random All
Repeat Song
Repeat Disc
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
14.Cable control page with the following controls:
Channel +
Channel -
Number Pad for direct channel entry with an “Enter” button.
Feedback for direct channel entry.
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.


Great Room.
1.One Fujitsu P42XTA51US Plasma TV using the following sources:
Internal cable tuner.
Access to DVR in Media Room via Component video.
Local Denon DVD-1930ci DVD player.
1.DVD player to turn system on and make all needed switching if DVD disc is placed in player and playback started.
2.Two pairs of speakers controlled by an in-wall touch panel.
Touch-panel to be UL listed for in-wall installation.
Touch-panel to have:
1.Volume + available on all pages/sources except when zone is off with real-time feedback.
2.Volume - available on all pages/sources except when zone is off with real-time feedback..
3.Mute available on all pages/sources except when zone is off with real-time feedback..
4.Source/Off buttons to be available at all times on all pages.
5.All source buttons to be one-push application meaning all necessary changes to system including amp power, source power, audio switching, audio levels, EQ settings to be made from one button.
6.AM/FM source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that AM/FM is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that AM/FM is selected in another zone.
7.XM source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that XM is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that XM is selected in another zone.
8.5 CD source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that CD is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that CD is selected in another zone.
9.Cable source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that Cable is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that Cable is selected in another zone.
10.TV source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that TV's internal tuner is current source. Source only available in this Zone.
11.DVD source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that local DVD is current source. Source only available in this Zone.
12.Off Button. Single press turns off Zone. Holding for 3 seconds turns all systems/sub-systems off. Button to change state/text to reflect that Zone is Off, Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that All Systems are currently Off
13.AM/FM Radio control page with the following controls:
Seek+
Seek-
Tune +
Tune -
AM Band
FM Band
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.
Real-Time feedback for current preset, current band, and current frequency.
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
14.XM Radio control page with the following controls:
Seek+
Seek-
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.
Number Pad for direct channel entry with an “Enter” button.
Feedback for direct channel entry.
Real-Time feedback for current preset, and Current channel Number.
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
15.CD control page with the following controls:
Play
Pause
Stop
Track +
Track -
Disc +
Disc -
Disc 1-5 direct selection
Random Disc
Random All
Repeat Song
Repeat Disc
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
16.Cable control page with the following controls:
Channel +
Channel -
Number Pad for direct channel entry with an “Enter” button.
Feedback for direct channel entry.
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.
17.DVD control page with the following controls:
Play
Pause
Stop
Track +
Track -
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
18.TV control page with the following controls:
Channel +
Channel -
Number Pad for direct channel entry with an “Enter” button.
Feedback for direct channel entry.
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.
3.Hard-Button only remote control with same basic functions as in-wall touch panel.
Remote and touch-panel to be kept “in-sync” at all times.
Source changes made on hand-held remote will be reflected on touch-panel.
Source changes made on touch-panel will be reflected on hand-held remote.


Media Room.
1.One Epson TW-1000 1080p LCD projector using the following sources:
Local JVC-HRS-5902 VCR.
DVR in Media Room via HDMI.
Local Denon DVD-2930ci DVD player.
1.DVD player to turn system on and make all needed switching if DVD disc is placed in player and playback started.
2.One Denon AVR-4306 AV Receiver.
4.System to be controlled by a wireless 8” touch panel with an in-wall docking station.
Docking Station to be UL listed for in-wall installation.
Touch-panel to have:
1.Volume + available on all pages/sources except when zone is off with real-time feedback.
2.Volume - available on all pages/sources except when zone is off with real-time feedback..
3.Mute available on all pages/sources except when zone is off with real-time feedback..
4.Source/Off buttons to be available at all times on all pages.
5.All source buttons to be one-push application meaning all necessary changes to system including amp power, source power, audio switching, audio levels, EQ settings to be made from one button.
6.AM/FM source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that AM/FM is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that AM/FM is selected in another zone.
7.XM source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that XM is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that XM is selected in another zone.
8.5 CD source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that CD is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that CD is selected in another zone.
9.Cable source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that Cable is current source. Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that Cable is selected in another zone.
10.VCR source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that VCR is current source. Source only available in this Zone.
11.DVD source button. Single press selects source. Button to change state/text to reflect that local DVD is current source. Source only available in this Zone.
12.Off Button. Single press turns off Zone. Holding for 3 seconds turns all systems/sub-systems off. Button to change state/text to reflect that Zone is Off, Button to have third state/text that clearly shows that All Systems are currently Off
13.AM/FM Radio control page with the following controls:
Seek+
Seek-
Tune +
Tune -
AM Band
FM Band
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.
Real-Time feedback for current preset, current band, and current frequency.
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
14.XM Radio control page with the following controls:
Seek+
Seek-
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.
Number Pad for direct channel entry with an “Enter” button.
Feedback for direct channel entry.
Real-Time feedback for current preset, and Current channel Number.
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
15.CD control page with the following controls:
Play
Pause
Stop
Track +
Track -
Disc +
Disc -
Disc 1-5 direct selection
Random Disc
Random All
Repeat Song
Repeat Disc
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
16.Cable control page with the following controls:
Channel +
Channel -
Number Pad for direct channel entry with an “Enter” button.
Feedback for direct channel entry.
Menu
Guide
DVR
Info
Exit
Cursor/navigation control
6 preset buttons. Pressing selects current preset. Holding for 3 seconds stores current station in selected preset slot.
17.DVD control page with the following controls:
Play
Pause
Stop
Track +
Track -
Menu
Cursor/navigation control
All Buttons to have real-time feedback where available.
18.VCR control page with the following controls:
Play
Pause
Stop
Fast Forward
Rewind
Record
Menu
Cursor/navigation control
Channel +
Channel -
Number Pad for direct channel entry with an “Enter” button.
Feedback for direct channel entry.
19.Audio mode control page:
Real-time feedback for current surround mode and EQ mode.
Direct selection buttons for:
Dolby Pro Logic 2 Movie
Dolby Pro Logic 2 Music
DTS Neo Movie
DTS Neo Music
Stereo
All Channel Stereo
Audyessey EQ on/off
Room EQ Flat
Pure Direct
20.Video mode control page:
Real-Time feedback for current aspect ratio and color mode.
Direct selection buttons for:
Aspect normal
Aspect Wide
Aspect Through
Color Mode Vivid
Color Mode Cinema Night
Color Mode Cinema Day
Color Mode Natural

I've learned a lot from this "blog". I really have. Here's what I take away from it.

1. Windows is an incredibly stable operating system. It's mostly stupid people who don't know how to use it that muck it up.

2. All of you custom guys should quit selling custom interfaces and start giving your customers what they really want.

3. Best Buy is great for my business.

4. Barry's jacket is still head and shoulders above the pack.

5. The world's best HA system is also the one that I just installed into my own
house....yesterday.

6. Microsoft really cares about me. They just have a strange way of showing it.

7. HP's support center really isn't in Bhopal. They're actually Americans who have been cleverly trained to have Indian accents.

8. It's my first day!

AnthonyZ: I wasn't planning on being in this house long and the walls weren't open. We added to the house and added some CAT5 lines where necessary and where it was permissable. I was trying to stick to a strict budget with this house so wiring for distributed audio wasn't a priority at the time. But, hey if it makes you feel better, "Ouch! you got me!".

AHEM: I've also learned something that, actually, experience has taught me before; it's pointless trying to have a meaningful, adult conversation in an online forum without some jackass trying to act superior (and/or feigning an attempt at sophmoric humor) or continually questioning what h/she cannot possibly grasp therefore "it sucks".

I'm done with you.

Postal, I thought Q gave you some excellent advise and even sounded on your side.