The reason HNNY requires you to pay is because you didn't buy your remote there, thus it would only cost them money.

I honestly think you are ignorant for buying it from a non-authorized source.

I don't know where you're from, but just ask a dealer in your area to repair it, and what the cost would be!

Nonetheless you got screwed over, I do hope this is a 'lesson learned' moment for you.

This topic always ruffles feathers !

Personally, I prefer to buy my remotes from overseas (USA), rather than paying 2-3x the price to buy from a local "approved" seller, paying for programming and "support" that I do not want or need. If a remote should die, buying a new replacement would still leave me well ahead in terms of cost.

Many of the non-installer owners on this forum are technically savvy hobbyists and not interested in a closed product, or having other people program for their home audio/automation/lighting - ie not the sort of person interested in buying a product-service combination. Unfortunately that is not Philips' chosen business model for the product, which is to attach service cost for the seller to the hardware. So you pretty much have to accept that if you want to "roll-your-own", there are no returns or warrantees.

Unfortunately, where I am, most resellers are primarily Hi-Fi salespeople that have just done the on-line quiz for level 1/2 (which is more to do with selling Philips products than technical skills), but actually have pretty rudimentary understanding of computers, networking and programming - not the person I want to be paying double price for "programming/support" that's much less than I can do for myself. I've twice in the last month seen scripts I have written and made available to anyone for free (or modified versions of them) being shown in demo set-ups with a "This is the type of custom programming we do".

Personally, I would like to see a different model where the hardware is sold at a much more realistic price to consumers, with a downloadable or online application that works similarly to the Logitech universal remote apps - allowing most users to create relatively rigid usable configurations with minimal fuss. Anyone wanting more involved programming should have the option of licensing modules (from other developers or specific integrators) online, learning how to program it themselves, or paying a licensed programmer/seller for custom programming. This would potentially increase uptake of the remotes, promote active enthusiast development communities, and allow good custom programmers/installers to get paid appropriately for their services, whilst separating them from the "I-did-a-little-course-online-so-I-can-charge-you-double" sellers that can give installers a bad name.

Even at the grey import price, the hardware is pretty overpriced - you can buy and older tablet PC with more capability at a lower price in some countries. If a similar but more sensibly priced "open" product from China or Taiwan is released onto the market, it will wipe out the Pronto. Geeks and techies will jump at it. Installers/integrators will switch to it simply because it makes more financial sense, and their charge for good programming/service could be a bigger portion of the cost, not tied to the product.

Someone providing good service and programming is entitled to be paid more for their work, but someone who doesn't is not. People are often happy to pay more for a good technical service (ie better than they can do themselves) - they're often not happy to pay more if they feel their choice if being restricted.

Just my 2c. Interesting to read everyone else's views though. Play nice !

@Roti

My point exactly...

|know that issues are going to arise and charge a markup accordingly. You |know looking at that card of yours that there is less than 50 bucks worth of |parts on that board. Rest is IP (intellectual property) and markup.

Why not? The remotes are fairly simple things. The RFX9400 is even simpler - and it is almost the same price. It is less complex than my Draytek router, for example - by an order of magnitude. It is also less complex than my managed switch. I doubt the remote is as complex as my mobile phone, even.


Nope - which is my issue. The remote comes with nothing. To get even basic support (ie the manual), I have to sit this simple test.

I agree completely with Roti. Very good post.

Customers like me (ie not in the USA) accept that there is no warranty. My URC MX900 is a good example. It is probably less than 2 years old - but it is stuffed. The buttons on it are starting to not work - very poor manufacture, I suspect. There is no chance I can fix it, even if there was a chance of a warranty. My pronto is in the same boat. I accept the risks when I buy it - I can actually buy 3 (almost 4) units, and still be in front. So if I have to toss one or two in the bin because they develop faults, then I am still ahead financially.

What I do not accept is no user support. I at least want the manual! And I think it is so much against Philips interest to do this. Roti was right - if a Chinese copy came along tomorrow, the pronto would be dead. Not because it is not a good product, but because of these restrictive trade practices.

And to be clear - I do not want all that much support, really. I do not expect Philips to answer every little query about prontoscript. Of course not. What I want is a decent manual, some decent examples, and access to a user forum (like this one). That is it. Like I get with everything else I buy.

And if anyone thinks the prontoscript manual is a tour-de-force, it is not. I develop this sort of stuff for a living, and a small 75 page manual is a weekend job. While it is a good starter guide, it is by no means good enough for what I assume is a fairly large installed base. It is like Philips does not really want to support these things. I keep thinking that if I pass the level III test, then I might get the 'real' manual!

For customers like me, money is not the object. After all, we are already paying double what you in the USA are paying. Like Roti said, we are technically savvy users who know what we want, and can easily program these things. Even javascript is not considered much of a language in my circles. Kind of just like a small step up from HTML.

And as another user on this forum said (Barry Gordon, I think) - assigning actions to buttons is not programming - not even close.

And perhaps that is what irks some of us. The 'high priest' mentality. ie Only we high priests (dealers) are privvy to the inner knowledge - you must go through us. I dare say I know as much as most dealers - after all, I have been a programmer and an electronics technician for 30 years. As Roti says, why should I pay some pimply youth that just did the online Level II course to 'program' my remote! It is laughable.

A quick question to all that want Pronto to be sold at a local hardware store...
How is a company like Philips to separate an accomplished and knowledgeable tinkerer (you) or a professional (dealer, or CI) from the technophobic "if it don't work just right out of the box it must be POS product", eBay hunting, know nothing moron?
How many products are returned daily to stores all over the world because people didn't know how to read the fricken manual or even how to open a box?

I know or highly suspect that anyone that's on this forum is probably technically inclined and capable of making the product work, more or less.
So how is Philips suppose to sort you from the other type? Would it be thru some sort of online testing? How about minimum length of time served on RC and maybe number of posts made?
I think that when you buy a product that has a slogan: "Designed by installers, made by Philips", you have to wonder if they don't target the installer base with this product rather than the end-user.
BTW, I started in this field as a DIY'er and grew and grew to a point where I started to take some classes and certifications and now many years later consider myself a professional CI with successful business.

In Scandinavia, where we operate distribution of Pronto, we certify all dealers for programming and support. The dealers have the support responsibility to the end users, we support the dealers.
Warranty is only given on products we have sold and delivered.

We instruct our dealers that this is a primarily custom installation product that is to be sold as a part of a system solution. We do not restrict our dealers from selling "over the counter" and they have to be able to sell programming as well. We do not certify any resellers that do not offer CI, programming and support.

Customers who have bought units abroad are welcome, support then costs money, and programming is generally charged a higher rate. Repair is offered, but no warranty. All waranty claims we instruct them to contact the original reseller, wherever that is, warranty is the original sellers responsibility, not ours.

Additionally, Pronto Profesional access is only given to certified reselllers, programming affiliates and people writing PS modules for manufacturers, we do not give access to end users. If we have end users that program themself and they require a certain module from the PS library we normally help them out, via their reseller.

Lundel you are correct all around the world except the US, the dealers have to pay for the parts to repair units under warrenty

I don't think this is unfair, and would gladly pay for this kind of service. However, I think the response from the distributor in the Netherlands, HNNY, is completely inappropriate.

Mario, I couldn't have said it better myself.

nimnul, very well put.

kneighbor, bad comparison again, you are talking about a part, not a complete unit designed from the start to be sold and supported through an authorized and trained dealer network. Also, in that scenario, YOU are the professional doing the installation, not some paper pusher just trying to upgrade his computer. Like I said before, Pronto's tech support is designed for dealers who have been through training, not for end users.

IMHO the entire sales model for the pronto is wrong and I have had this discussion with the pronto team.

Withregards to repair, I generally believe that a manufacturer should support their product no matter how it is sold. A warranty might not apply if the product was bough from a non-authorized reseller, but the basic product should be supported with regard to malfunction or repair.

In the USA I believe Service Wide Technologies (and I have used them to repair a Pronto PRO that I spilled coffee onto) will repair any unit that is shipped to them (probably even from outside the USA), but not necessarily under warranty.


My thoughts on the sales model is that the Pronto line should be shipped with different firmwares at different cost factors.

1) A base pronto for the simple end user to be able to do IR with which does not include Prontoscript. This would be the "Logitech" equivalent and be competitive with that product line in price.

2) A firmware package that provides the full prontoscript capability. This would be an extra cost item.

3) A firmware package that adds a full web browser to the system.

4) Any combination of 1,2,3.

To do this correctly there would have to be some sort of ability to mate the firmware to the Pronto so that a given firmware version could only be used with a specific Pronto. Something like a user installable SIM chip that has the correct codes to install a specific level of firmware/software and is mated to the Pronto's serial number. When you buy the restricted firmware you get the SIM chip for a specific Pronto that allows that firmware to run on that Pronto. The firmware itself is generic but needs a code number supplied by the SIM chip to operate or perhaps just to install. The code number could be a standard DES decryption key. Probably not foolproof, but at least somewhat protective of Philips IP. Authorised Dealers would have the capability to make a SIM chip.

Hi Barry I like your ideas, but I think I can sum this up in one word " Cost" as you well know at the end of the day everything comes down to cost, adding more options , always costs more.

They have tried to sort of do this with

TSU9200 programmable at a low cost , and has more features than most remotes at its cost.

TSU9300 as 9400 smaller screen and no scripts.

etc etc.

Also People have to remember its still a low volume product compared to items in the IT industry as you know :)

I my self will do repairs to units not bought in the country I live in, but only when I have contacted the suppliers that it was purchased from.

There are other issues that some people are not aware off too, If a device transmits on 2.GHz it will have to go for approval to the authorities that be (there is a cost to this too.) so all the Ponto's that come into this country have a identification make on the sticker which allows them to operate on 2.GHZ, the imports from other countries do not have this identification mark and are illegal to operate on 2.GHz.

There has been some products already been removed from the market place and the importers fined. so beware :( , i dont know if these rules apply in other countries, but im sure someone will comment on that..

Hey one day one of the 3 three that I had for a customer did something funky like this and the Philips support didn't know some of the this that I found / figured out to fix my. It was a Reset but different then just some old reset.

VeryPSB,

Did you try the 'Complete' firmware reload as discussed in the FAQ on Philips Site?

I've send the remote to SWT and they replaced the controller board. Within a week I experienced the same behaviour, so I returned it to SWT again. Guess what, the controller board was broke again and replaced another time. I hope it lasts longer that a few days now...
I had to pay for all shipping costs (to and from the USA, 2 times) so the TSU 9600 isn't that much cheaper now...

It just so happens that all 5 of my US Prontos ALSO have the AU Homologations mark on the sticker. It is the checkbox followed by N2409. So, with regard to AU repairs, it must be something else, like Serial #, perhaps.