+1 !!!

Listen to the pro's on this one. Don't let your installer bully you into something. Take notes from what people here have said and have a sit down with the integrator. Ask why he wants to use certain equipment. Make him justify it to you. It's your money. He's overselling you in one area and not meeting your needs in another.

Yes they are using a template for the problem and even if it only takes them 4 hours to change that program you aren't going to get billed for just 4 hours. It takes us programmers years to perfect our templates. A lot of guys buy templates and they aren't cheap at all.

It appears from what you've posted that you are a laid back client. I love my clients that are like that. Continue to be like that but make the guy justify why he's using what he's using. Don't let him take advantage of your laid back approach.

JBS,

The Cameo 8 button has been out since about march, I have used quite a few of them [Link: crestron.com]

They buttons are configurable, so the two large buttons at the top can also be 4 smaller buttons, and my original post I said 2 less buttons but apparently I was a retard, last time I check 12-8=4 less buttons, but for basic zones they work great, and ALOT nicer than the 12 button.

I understand the URC move, using the right commands it can still trigger codes on teh crestron natively, but I really like the meta data feedback and several other functions you get by staying all crestron. You could also use sources that have two way drivers built by URC as well, but I am just a believer using things designed to work together is just a better idea in the end.

I am sure you will get things figured out, usually my crestron jobs its about 20% of the job is programming(can get higher depending on integration and other factors) but the system your talking about could be done in system builder very easily, its not uncommon for all of us to try to sell similar systems because they are proven and programmed.

The Swamp 24x8 is a kick ass part, but a bit pricey, but honestly once you add two pad8a's and crestron amps, you could get newer (brand new) equipment thats all digital, expandable, and just plain ballsy, for not much more. I suspect two products are gonna disappear pretty soon, Adagio, and the Pad8a (although still very functional) they are just getting pretty dated.
24 Sources, and 8 zones, and they got a new peice coming thats a 4 zone expansion instead of 8 that is going to to be about half the price.
It also has some pretty trick settings for EQ

With crestron there really is 100 ways to do anything,

To me with your needs I would use a couple of 2 AAE's (10 source 6 zone(expanded to 12) a AV2, Pvid8x4, and some C2N-CBF-P for basic control and some handhelds for your tv areas. The AAE has built in amps, which will run most speakers very well.


Anyways let us know what you end up with!

After you figure interconnects and additional labor, the price difference between the SWAMP and the PAD8/AMPX16 is pretty much a wash. Expand past 8 zones and the SWAMP is the clear winner in actual installed cost.

There is no reason to buy a new processor with the system described above if you have a working AV2.


Not moving to DM here is a big mistake IMO. Everything is HDMI right now. Many BD players don't ship with component outputs. HTPC's only have HDMI out and soon the cable boxes and satellite receivers will only have HDMI out. New TV's usually have 1 component input on them now and 5 HDMI inputs. It wont be long before its totally phased out. This is where your money needs to be spent. Not on a new processor.


Im confused here. Do you have an AV2 or not? If you have one then you don't need an MC3 or a CP2E. The gear you described above looks like stuff you have already had. Is this a correct assumption? Or is this being proposed as a new system for you?

Many products are IP controllable also and more will become IP controllable in the future. Control ports are also on room solution boxes and you can always slave a processor for additional ports and you can add 3rd party relay products. This isn't a huge issue IMO.


This is not correct.


Absolutely. Spend the money where it needs to be spent like DM.

Personally I would do third party HDMI and MC3 and think hard about Sonnex as well. Knowing that everything is shifting toward IP control, the two series processors can only support 30 open sockets, where the MC3 will do 150. Plus the provision for an OSD is not utlized now but it may be useful when it is implemented.

Clarifications first:
*** This will be an entirely new system, replacing a Xantech ZPR6810+EXP9 that distributed audio and composite video throughout the home. Wiring is all in with two Cat5 and one coax to each TV (we'll abandon the coax), one Cat5 to each wall control, and 16/2 to all audio zone speakers. Everything is home-run wired to a dedicated A/V room behind the theater.
*** Reason for the upgrade is because 1) The Xantech is developing problems. 2) We'd like to upgrade A/V to zone TVs from composite to component video or better. 3) We like the idea of controlling all audio zones from an iPad when entertaining. 4) I did all the install & programming on the Xantech system 15 years ago, and I don't have the time to install and program the new one.
*** I preliminarily chose not to go with distributed HDMI because 1) Component is a quantum leap above composite that has been "acceptable" on zone TVs. 2) Our high-end theater (Sim2 Lumis & MC12HD) is on HDMI and doesn't go through the distribution system. 3) I've read and heard countless horror stories about HDMI distribution bugs, and we have a couple 80' runs.
*** Above all, we want a distribution system that works flawlessly and seamlessly. In other words, I have no desire to push the technology envelope -- I just don't want a system that has to changed out in 5 years.
*** We're kind of locked in on distributed audio switching using external multizone amps since we recently upgraded to new Lexicon DD-8 distribution amps before the Xantech broke. [So Swamp is not a good option.]
*** I've known our Crestron dealer for years and he's not "pushing" me in any direction. He is open to any and all discussion. He's giving us a great price on Crestron components if we go that way, which is one reason why programming (at 1/3 of cost) seems a little high.
*** Seeking other integrators is not a viable option when you live in a state with fewer people than a 10 square block area of NYC, and there's only one "qualified" installer within 3 hours driving distance.

With all the above considerations, I'm leaning toward asking the dealer to go with an AV2 instead of MC3 (which he may have quoted just for the lower price). Also considering the Cameo over the CNX keypads. Just from decades of experience, I don't want to mix distribution components from different manufacturers, except to go with URC MX900 remotes which I like better than Crestron.

MC3 all the way. im not sure why you wouldnt, unless you needed a dramitic amount more of . it is light years ahead of 2 series. literally 50 times more powerful and dramatically better at IP control and integration. not to mention when the on screen GUI goes live, that would be pretty sick in the theater. It is pretty damn stable and one of the largest CAIPs in the country swears by it. if you need an extra control port or two get a QM-RMC or some ST-COM, IR, or I/O boxes. or better yet select devices that have IP control.

If you want a system that works and doesn't need to be phased out then consider the DM, 80' with cat5 is no issue, and if you want HD to those TVs I don't see much other choice, component will be gone.

How mant TVs, sorry if I didn't see that, but the new DM products that are good for 6 sets aren't that expensive considering.

JBS,

The biggest concern that many of us Pros hav is that you are really going to regret not getting a DM solution in there. The new "inexpensive" DM switchers are imminent and you should really consider waiting for them. I despise HDMI, but after a lot of counseling, I've come to accept that it is the foreseeable future for all of us and have adjusted my business practices accordingly. Crestron has probable dumped more than $100 million into development of the technology at this point, so you are in good hands.

+1

OK... let me ask some real novice DM questions then :-)

If we have 5 inputs, and 15 outputs (7 TV zones (A/V) plus 8 audio zones fed by distribution amplifiers), then we would need a DM 16x16, correct?

The Crestron DM16x16 shell has a MSRP of $9800. And the input and output cards (of various configurations) all have to be bought separately, which could easily add another $8-$10k to it. So it's pretty easy to have $20k (MSRP) into a DM before programming, correct?

What Crestron devices are required on the zone ends to demodulate the Cat5 to HDMI? Or to RBG & analog audio if a TV doesn't have HDMI?

In that DM system, would the programming time be about the same, less than, or more than programming an AV2 with PVID8x4 and Pad-8A?

I am one that still doesn't suggest DM, strickly for its cost. It works great, but really requires the right customer to really appreciate it. I would guess 95% of the people out there wouldn't notice the difference between Component and HDMI. Most of my customers just trust I know whats best, and HDMI switching IMO just isn't cost effective enough. This system the OP posted is about 12-15k, a DM setup would nearly double his investment (depending on cards and DM required)

I just quoted 24 zones of DM, customer ended up choosing the 1/8 price for component option. I am all about quality, but in the end if someone is happy with a TV in the store (which are still primarily wired with a audio authority (or comparable) component amplififer 1x8) they will be happy with a component switcher in their home. Crestron does have some other stuff coming that is more cost effective based on their current DM offerings which I can't wait to see at cedia in another month. Be nice to see the prodigy

As far as IP control, yep its a cool idea, is it ready? I still choose serial for most installations. The most recent issue was with a Ra2 installation, swapped to 232, worked fantastic. My Denon at my home sometimes ignores IP logins, and swapped to 232, never has an issue.

Just wish all of this was more straight forward. I think IP control IS the way of the future, key words is future. For now I stick to with what is proven and what works. Thats Component distribution and 232 control (and IR when I have to) We need more bluray players with 232/ip control that dont cost a fortune.

Sorry JBS, didn't mean to take this on a tangent, but I think there is some decent info in here for ya.

Now that I understand that you have existing amps, the pad8's make more sense. The Cameo keypads will be a nice upgrade

JBS,

You may want to wait 20ish days just to see what is announced/released at Cedia. Might be some more cost effective HDMI options, but it won't be in the range of the pvid8x3/8x4. I usually try to be as informed about new products and prices this time of year before I propose a system.

Sometimes you can pry small details of whats coming from manufactures and reps, sometimes you can't, but I prefer my customers get the best, and best for them. There are alot of transitions going on this time of year.