Ok, another good point to discuss......what are the limitations of SB?

And a direct question to you Sofa...What the heck is a Nesters Ding?????? .

If YOU don't know what "nesters ding" is, i'm certainly not at liberty to tell you.

 So, sort of like the "Urban Dictionary", i'm thinking of staring a "Smart Type" Dictionary that helps us understand the split up words that smart type turns our well verbalized sentences into. 

For example, if you see, "nesters ding" the smart type dictionary will show you that it is "understanding" ;-P

It's not the price I could charge for programming in SB but it's unpredictibility from one database to an other. Secondly, when it breaks it is often beyond my means to fix without moving to Simpl and finalally, its instability puts my competance into question.

I template Prodigy in Simpl. I have a preconfigured feature set built upon one surround zone, Squeezebox, iPod and no more than 1 more TV. Any more on a single system and I have to move to global cache and that's putting more time into a kludged solution than I'd like.

An idividual dealer can bet on SB in ways someone selling programming could not. If you don't have a ton of jobs 500 in your pocket is better than in someone you've paid to code. One can give a price for SB but not a gurantee the system will work. If there are issues then its you and Crestron who'll have to work them out or you'll have to pay more to code. If you are in Simpl and VT-Pro the software is predictable. You may run into firmware issues or hidden issues such as the latest EX firmware release describe.

Good point. If a programmer is reluctant to code in SB not only because of time involved but also the competancy of the project, then how how does that reflect on a dealer who has no experience in SIMPL? There is only so much "learning" curve that a company can endure before it adversely affects your bottom line. Moving into the SIMPL world is not a quick process and that learning curve can be extremely expensive with respect to time. If you are busy, like we are, it can be the most frustrating product to deal with. It's a crap shoot every time when bidding SB jobs. You know how long it "SHOULD" take but it rarely happens. As a business owner, instinct tells me to pad the programming costs to compensate but you don't get the jobs that way when you are in a competetive situation and more importantly that's not a very good business model.

There are none... sort of. The problem is that the wizard (for any software) has limits because they can't possibly imagine or allow every scenario.

So think about this in website terms. Have you ever used something like MS Front Page or Net Objects Fusion? You theoretically CAN do anything you want with that software but the wizard is set up to crank sites out quickly by people who dont understand HTML. It doesnt save time for those who understand how to code html/css because they have a more efficient way to handle things.

So an html coder could use a wizard app and as long as you stay inside the box (template) you are fine. But the moment you try and step outside that box you have to hand code things. Have you ever looked at the auto generated code from one of the website wizard apps? It takes 10 times as long to make simple changes just because were trying to step slightly outside the template.

Back to crestron... You CAN autogenerate the entire system and then manually go in and manipulate each panel and splice in modules and skin this and that but... a 1 room prodigy system like a typical theater would take a CAIP a couple/few hours and they will be done/finished/for real this time. So lets say they charge you $200 an hour. Thats $400-600 tops. Most likely you can get this done for $300.

How many hours did you or an installer spend in system builder? Did you end up going back to the job site 1...2...10 extra days because you or your installer had to deal with programming and couldn't get the installation done? How much money did you lose because you couldn't spend those hours generating leads or working on company marketing or handling service issues for older clients?

Would you say that you even came close to $300? What about $600? My guess is that getting your first prodigy system completely programmed costed your company $2000-3000 if you total up the actual time spent on it and the other issues i mentioned above like shuffling your labor pool around because you or another employee had to deal with programming.

I know that a $300 line item for programming a remote is a hard sell sometimes but the alternative is to spend more time on a project than you need to. Someone is paying for that time and IMO its 10X the $300 it would cost to outsource it.

I remember when we did our own satellite installations. Another tech and I would waste a whole day getting a dish up. Theres no way we could charge $1200 to install a dish (2 guys X 6 hours X $95 an hour) so we ended up eating most of that. On top of that we wasted a day for 2 techs who could have been getting the installation done or organizing the warehouse for that matter. So the options were to eat the $1200 or hire more people that would cost way more than $1200... Or... let the client hire a satellite company to deal with the satellite. We realized we didn't want to be satellite installers.

I know that programming is different because its directly related to our product but if you dont have the time/money/inclination to have a full time programmer then you need to outsource it or you will lose money every single time.

Here is the one flaw (besides technical) of wizard programs versus Simpl coding with respect to large complex systems and smaller simple systems and cost...

1) Simpl programming is the best option and sometimes only option for very large complex systems that require a lot of customization, as the programming fees are very large and you can put the best talent on the job (hired or outsourced).

2) Simpl programming is the best option for small basic jobs, as the programming fees should be very low. Prodigy programming in Simpl may take anywhere from a few hours to a half day, depending on how well developed "templates" or body of work a programmer has to call from.

3) Wizard programming is best for very large simple systems that do not require any extreme customization. This is why wizard programming methods work so well for lighting systems. Lighting systems are basic (on/off or 0% to 100%, that's pretty much it) and scale very well from the simplest jobs up to the largest ones, as it is all based upon the same principles.

My recommendation for Prodigy, is to code it in Simpl. If it is costing you a lot of money to have someone code Prodigy, whether it is in house or contracted, I would recommend that you find someone else. If the job is not simple and requires an extreme amount of coding, well then it is not really a "Prodigy" system. As an integrator, you may enjoy the cost savings of a PMC type processor over a 2-seris, and by all means take that cost savings if afforded to you, but the complexity of a job is NOT based upon the processor used, but by the parameters of the job.

True. Initially we had jobs that never seemed to end because of systembuilder issues. It was partly my fault because we were green to Crestron at the time and I didn't quite understand the limitations of certain processors, hardware etc. We got it all sorted out but it was a costly lesson.


The prodigy line was supposed to be the line that could compete against URC, RTI and C4 ( at a certain level) While I agree with everything you are saying, the limitations and problems with SB (even on very basic systems) can make it difficult for the average dealer to bid jobs, get the jobs and make a profit. Alot of dealers can't afford a full time programmer nor can they afford to outsource a good portion of their profit. So what is the point and purpose of SB, anyway? I always felt it was or should have been a stepping stone for new companies bringing the line on to get programming done quicker, hence making the projects more affordable to the end user. I was wrong!


The first time I personally installed a Bell ExpressVu dish, it took me 8 hours!! I outsource now!!! :)


As I mentioned above somewhere, I've decided to outsource from here on in. It is a huge frustration for me lately and the bleeding has to stop! :)

It may cost a bit more but at least I know that when it's done in SIMPL, it's done.

Thanks for this. This is a good information.

BTW..I clicked on your website...Dude...you've done some serious gigs, eh!!

I call it small fish in a small pond syndrome. When a big name actor happens to be vacationing in Hawaii or shooting another film we tend to get the call to do some pickup work. There are also a few actors who live here and also get some of that work, which would otherwise have been done in LA (Burbank).

.

I'm coming into this thread late, and agree with everything Mac, Tom, and Alan have said. However, I think a couple of these points should be reiterated...


This is a HUGE misconception. A good programmer will SAVE the dealer money - even moreso with an inexperienced or new dealer.

Imagine how much smoother (profitable) the first jobs would have been, with an experienced programmer from the beginning. You also would have ALREADY had a Simpl/VtPro-based architecture to work with. You wouldn't have to be thinking about transitioning from SB to Simpl now, or at some point in the future. The longer you wait, the more "painful" it will be :-)

Also, programming should not be an expense, any more than installation labor is - it's a profit center. If the system is designed and documented properly, you should MAKE money on the programming, even if you sub it out.



An experienced programmer, or consultant, could have pointed out all of those limitations, and again, SAVED the company money.

That depends. If a dealer's market can only bring.... let's say.....75.00 per hour for programming, most 3rd party programmers would charge that or more for Prodigy. It's not that difficult to see why dealers are reluctant to outsource. They may take a hit by trying to conquer this themselves but it's understandable why they will endure it for awhile.

For crestron programming, the market is still more than $75, this isn't URC, if the market has clients that are purchasing Crestron systems then they will pay the $125+ and hour for the programming.

I've been looking at Prodigy for a while now. I have the demo kit, PMC2+, Idoc, Tstat, dimmers. I'm taking the intro to Crestron class in Sept. And I have been following threads on RC for awhile as well to see what everyone is saying.

What seems to be a consensus is that SB is what, broken, quirky, unstable, useless? It seems that the experienced Crestron guys like Alan and Stamp as well as others say to bypass SB in total and either use Simpl or a CAIP.

A few (Sofa King?) and maybe some others have made SB work it seems. I remember a suggestion to not let SB build any pages for you, and that this helped a lot.

I'm buying into Prodigy for many reasons, but the website says it all- Simple,Affordable,Expandable. Is it? Are there jobs that can be done with Prodigy that aren't going to involve tons of time and call-backs?
Can any job (don't laugh or flame now) truly be done in Composer?

I've "programmed" Homeworks, URC, Elan, Nuvo, Russound, RA2. I was thinking that Composer, even SystemBuilder, was a similar product.

It also seems that most posters have tried to customize Prodigy, or use it on large projects etc, and maybe that is one of the problems?

An example: Say a customer has decided to upgrade the system in their family room. They are getting a better, bigger TV, upgrading their old AVR, getting a Bluray so they can stream movies etc. They have a cable or sat box. They want to delve into automation, be able to see and change the tstat from the couch, control some lights in a couple of rooms, use their iPhone for music etc, and use xpanel and an iPad for some control. (not the only control)

Is this system inside "the sandbox" as I've heard it called, or do you need a CAIP and Simpl to program this? Do you even need SB to do it?

Now, they like what they have. They want to add 4 rooms of music with a PAMP, and some more dimmers. Is this hard to add? Did I just jump out of the sandbox?

Now they want to add some video switching. They are adding TV's to the patio and want to add an extra cable box so that they have different feeds. I need to add a 3rd party switcher. Am I out of the sandbox now? Am I going to run into a lot of trouble now?

At some point (hopefully) they love it and want to add some more dimmers, some wall controls, a PTL4. They want to dump the Bluray and add the ADMS and the Megachanger.

Again, did this exceed the theoretical limits of Prodigy? Is this now so complex a system that I need Simpl or a CAIP? Is the sandbox way behind me at this point?

Keep in mind that I am not trying to customize graphics or anything, I'll use what Prodigy gives me. I just want to use everything as is.

But this is how I envision that Prodigy would work and how I think it would apply to my business model. It's the next step up, and a powerful one if it works like they say. It gives a client a toe-dip before the plunge. I like the fact that all the equipment is from one manufacturer, it should play well together, it doesn't have to be kluged together from various systems hoping that it will integrate, and the reliability of Crestron is a given. I has 2way feed back. I has all the options that I would like to offer a client.

I know that this isn't for 10,000 sq ft houses. That isn't my market anyway.

The thing is, I'm a one man band. Service calls, call backs, jobs that take longer than expected, all that kind of stuff kills me. I need something I can install and walk away from, knowing that it will work. Things happen, true. But overall, it just needs to work reliably. And like Alan said, when those issues come up, it sometimes calls your competency into question. And if some of YOU GUYS are having problems with SB and Prodigy, with your knowledge and experience, then I despair ever being able to get it right myself. I don't have the time to learn Simpl and a CAIP is probably out of the question.

So, the original question that Gman asked was "can you make money with Prodigy?" Can it be installed profitably? Will it be solid?

I guess I should have started a new thread, but you were all here. Does anyone think that the system I described requires an enormous learning curve, Simpl or a CAIP just to get it done reliably? If you honestly think that, then I need to rethink Prodigy, it probably isn't for me.

Thanks for everything. The input here is invaluable. Any advice from the guys who are actually installing Prodigy is greatly appreciated. Thanks Gman, and I hope I didn't derail your post.

Thanks all,
G