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Total Control series. How does it work, and what's the alternatives?
This thread has 17 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Thursday November 22, 2012 at 05:16
MrHaugen
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I've been looking at a product to replace my Harmony 900 remote for some time now. But I'm struggling to find something to fit my exact needs.

First I looked at the MX-5000 or 5000i, but now I see that URC have introduced a new line of remotes called Total Control. The TRC-1280 looks like my kind of remote, but it seems to be a lot of prerequisites for this to work as expected. Complicated setups does not scare me, as I have multiple servers and clients in several rooms. But I would like it simple if it can be, and it can't cost several thousand bucks.

The TRC-1280 seems to only work with the MRX-10 or MRX-1 base stations. In addition I've read that the TRC-1280 does not include IR control, so you'll have to transmit IR from the base station. Further more, I have the feeling that you'll need a base station in other rooms as well if you want to control IR devices, lighting and other stuff. Is this correct? It sounds like it will be a pretty hefty price tag on such a system.

Perhaps some of you can help me figure out what's right for me? I have to limited experience except for some Logitech remotes....

My setup today:
I've got a Harmony 900 remote that control my cinema setup in my Living room. Sparp 70 inch TV, AsRock 3D HTPC, Yamaha 7.1 reciever, PVR/TV Tuner, Xbox, PS3, Wii. All connected trough the reciever and to the TV. The lighting in the living room is RF, but I think it's a pretty closed system. If doable, I would like to control the existing system, or to change some of it to fit my Remote/system. The current system I'm using is xComfort (Eaton?).

I'd like to expand on this and create more RF or Wifi controlled lighting in the house when I renovate. Perhaps a few zones for music. But that will be controlled trough the HTPC with JRiver Media Center 18. Probably just cabling needed.

Remote control of the Theater setup have to be either RF or Wifi. HTPC can be controlled directly by Wifi, but the other components need a converter or direct control via IR. The remote have to react with very little latency. I'm going nuts by the latency issues introduced with the RF to IR converting on the Harmony 900!

As you see I don't have a multi room setup (yet). So what would work for my need, and not lock me to much down for further expansion?

Any help would be appreciated!
Post 2 made on Thursday November 22, 2012 at 08:24
BobL
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Although the Total Control is great it is way too involved for a casual user, no offense. You have to write your own drivers for equipment even if you use the URC database as a starting point. The value comes once you have your drivers written and you can reuse them in multiple systems. It will cost customers quite a bit to have their installer make drivers for their own supplied equipment.

Every Total Control system needs an MRX-10 or MRX-20 (coming soon, I hope), you can't just use an MRX-1. MRX-1s can be added for other zones. There is no IR available in the remotes everything needs to be connected to a an IR emmitter, RS232 or IP controlled. You need a robust network for Total Control, most consumer stuff won't cut it. Especially, if you are going to stream music with any of their network music devices.

However, it is a lot more capable system especially for home automation. For a simple surround system and lighting it is bit overkill.

It is not like a Harmony or other URC remotes where codes are easily available in the software. CCP is different than Harmony, it is not wizard based and will take longer to program but is a LOT more customizeable. You'll have to buy from a dealer willing to give you the CCP software. You will have a hard time finding a dealer to give you the Total Control Software.
OP | Post 3 made on Friday November 23, 2012 at 05:55
MrHaugen
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Thanks BobL!

I'm not unfamiliar with programming, so I might be able to do that if I managed to get the software. However, if it's so hard to come by as you say, and you'll have to add emitters on all equipment, it's just a no go for me.

I need something similar to Harmony 900, with the IR/RF converter conveniently place on the other side of the room, and broadcasting IR signals. Or a remote that does the IR directly. In worst case, I could lay some cables to an IR blaster from my HTPC, through the roof and to the other side of the room, so it's all controlled from my MC. Or, I could do the same from another control device.

The MX-5000 would achieve this, right? If it have IR (specs says it has), I can live with pointing the remote towards the TV as long as it needs to send IR signals. As long as the remote also works with minimal latency over either Wifi/RF. I like Wifi because of the two way communication. I'd like to watch albums and rate songs etc.

Only problem with the MX-5000 might be to control the lighting in the rooms on the same floor. It seems like a lot of manufacturers of lighting system locks it down. So, I'm just very uncertain what products might be most open her. Would the MX-5000 work easily with more open RF lighting frequenzies, or are there converters to achieve this? I basically have no clue here. I just know that different manufacturers use different frequencies.

Some suggestions to put me on the right path would be awesome!
Post 4 made on Friday November 23, 2012 at 08:41
goldenzrule
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URC has its own lighting devices made by Lutron. Works well and should suffice unless you are doing the entire house. Total Control is not even an option if you wish to do it yourself. That is ONLY available to dealers. It is only available to direct dealers as a matter of fact. CCP is available to end users, but it is at your dealers discretion if they will give it to you. Do your research before you purchase and make sure the dealer you purchase from is authorized and willing to give you the software, and you'll be fine. Understand that while its not the hardest thing in the world, it is also not a Harmony, so programming will take a bit of learning. These are not wizard based programming remotes, so it will take a bit more to program. The end results however can far exceed what you can accomplish with a Harmony.
Post 5 made on Friday November 23, 2012 at 13:14
Lowhz
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Total Control Accelerator is a wizard, but system design and engineering is much more important because it is intended as a whole house control and automation solution. If you have some control theory experience and read all of the documentation included in the software package you can install and program it yourself. That being said, you have to design and understand control and automation theory first before you start buying parts and programming. It's not as simple as buying a MRX-10 and TRC1280 and adding some IR codes to it.

That being said, the MX5000 is an OK remote, but its wifi capability is best suited for use with the PSX2 iPod dock for 2-way metadata (there is a URC driver written for it in CCP), you can install the little news and weather widgets on it through CCP, and if there is a driver for it you can see volume control and radio station preset info on the screen if your AVR has IP control Nd there is a driver for it. Network latency make for sluggish feel of volume and channel commands with that remote over wifi, not to mention the network has a tendency to go to sleep after a certain period of time to preserve the battery charge.

All current URC remotes work with the URC lighting devices. They are easy to program, easy to install and work well for blind, 1-way control.

Personally I'd avoid the MX5000 and get a MX980 or MX1200. Or, as I'm waiting for it, a MXiOS license and MRX-1 base station and use your iPad or iPhone as a remote. Very customizable and has more powerful macro features than even Total Control does right now. That should be shipping in a couple of weeks.
OP | Post 6 made on Sunday November 25, 2012 at 06:09
MrHaugen
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On November 23, 2012 at 13:14, Lowhz said...

That being said, the MX5000 is an OK remote, but its wifi capability is best suited for use with the PSX2 iPod dock for 2-way metadata (there is a URC driver written for it in CCP), you can install the little news and weather widgets on it through CCP, and if there is a driver for it you can see volume control and radio station preset info on the screen if your AVR has IP control Nd there is a driver for it. Network latency make for sluggish feel of volume and channel commands with that remote over wifi, not to mention the network has a tendency to go to sleep after a certain period of time to preserve the battery charge.

This worries me a lot. My primary use is my HTPC with JRiver Media Center. It requires fast reaction from the control unit. It's the reason why I'm trying to go away from my Harmony 900. So, if the latency of commands over Wifi is bad and wifi has sleep issues now and then, this is really not an option. Damn it. This remote is the only one seemed perfect for my use.

I never use iOS/OSx either. I just can't support evil companies that cares so little for their customers needs, and tries so desperately to gain monopoly with dirty tricks :) (my opinion, yes). I only have Android Phones and Pads, and will get a Pad and Phone with Win8 soon as they have some great hardware.

The other alternative are the new line of Total Control remotes, but I'll not get software to program it my self. Or I might not be able to do it if I could get it. Even if I had the money to spend on customization, I would probably not get any help because I live in Norway. I doubt there are any dealers here. This pretty much breaks any hope of me using URC top-of-the-line remotes. So, what are my alternatives NOW?

You mentioned the MX-980. I see that this remote have no Wifi capabilities. And that is not good. It would mean changing the remote ONLY to remove the latency issues with the Harmony. In addition you have this huge and probably expensive base station that's needed to use RF. I'd still need to place the base station on my attic, and drill a hole for one of the IR emitters to place it in the roof, about 6 meters away from my AV equipment. My Harmony 900 with base station already do this today. I have to say I see little point in changing hardware...

WHY are there no companies that can produce a one handed remote with Wifi,
RF and IR capabilities ON the remote it self? Those of us that almost only have the need of controlling things close by don't often want huge base stations, IR emitters everywhere and dealers needed to program everything. Cost is not the major issue in my case. The biggest problems seems to be that there are no products to cover my needs.

Sorry about the negativity. Just a bit frustrated that this should be so hard to do. Thanks a lot for all your input! If nothing else, you've at least helped me prevent buying something that would not work for me.
Post 7 made on Sunday November 25, 2012 at 07:41
BobL
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The other problem you would have is there is no media center control modules or drivers for 2 way IP control of an HTPC either in Total control or CCP. The best solution I can give you is something like Redeye by Thinkflood. If all your devices are IP it can control them all without an external box but you would need the Redeye module for IR. It works with Droids and the software has scripting so it is very customizeable.

For regular remotes I don't see this happening in the consumer world for a long time. To a techie they can't understand why everything isn't IP and on the network but in reality it is not practical at this time. Reliability is key and the whole system now relies on a network. If your network goes down so does all the TVs in your house. Also, consider the amount of tech support needed if everything was network controlled and how you the average joe would deal with routers, access points, Static IPs, Vlan, DMZ, port forwarding, etc. This one reason alone is why IR still exists.

What could be done and hasn't is the manufacturers to come up with IR and RF standards so their remotes could control all your devices. This could put the universal remote companies out of business and take a big chunk of money out of installers and programmers. HDMI did try with CEC but as any installer will tell you that is a joke.

Good luck in finding a control system. The Redeye might be a good fit.
OP | Post 8 made on Tuesday November 27, 2012 at 17:36
MrHaugen
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That seems like an interesting concept. Is it possible at all to get a hardware remote solution of of this? I don't think that a pure touch based solution will ever replace a remote with hardware buttons. It's so much better to just feel the buttons hit the right one without even looking.
Post 9 made on Friday December 28, 2012 at 10:44
Presinium
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The MX-5000 is a Wi-Fi, RF, and IR remote Control that is wand-style exactly like you said you are looking for, MrHaugen!
Josh Edman
Los Angeles, CA
(888) 415 - 5855
Post 10 made on Friday December 28, 2012 at 11:34
AVXpressions
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I agree that the MX-5000 is probably the remote for you based on your needs. I could name others but price point seems to be a concern with you so the MX-5000 will be your best bang for the buck. There have been ongoing updates to the MX-5000 to address things such as the delay in wifi wakeup and it is a lot better now.

The key to using any type of control device on a wireless network is the wireless network itself. It needs to be stable and very strong signal anywhere you plan to use the wireless device. Using things such as wifi expanders or repeaters is a very very bad idea. You need to use a good Access Point (or points depending on the size of the structure) that will provide a stable signal. Look at Ubiquity, Engenius, or ruckus for quality access points to provide a stable wifi network.

Using an MRX-1 plugged into your network will give you the wi-fi gateway to control things on your hardwire network that are available for IP control. As long as a device is on your network anywhere in the house it will be controllable.

You can add a standard RF antenna to the MRX-1 and control equipment via RF. This is nice for things such as cable boxes. Stick an emitter on the cable box and your good to go.

Or if you prefer control it with IR directly out of the remote.

For your additional rooms you can add small MRF-260 base stations which are relatively inexpensive. They have front panle blasters on them so you don't have to install the emitters on each piece of equipment if you don't want to.

With all due respect to the original poster you are trying to jump off in the deep end of the pool and the water is going to be way over your head. What you want to accomplish is fairly simple (for me) but based on your questions alone you will struggle making it work reliably and efficiently on your own.

I'm sure you don't play dentist when you need your teeth worked on, or plumber when you have a pipe burst, you hire a professional. It's now time to do that. You can probably find an installer willing to work with you some and I know there are dealers who are willing to provide a legitimate copy of the programming software when you purchase the product from them. Call some local guys and find out who sells URC products and see if you can strike a deal.
Post 11 made on Saturday December 29, 2012 at 06:10
Presinium
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I've implemented Total Control Systems ranging from 1 room to a maximum currently of 24 rooms of control.  That being said, it was pretty amazing to see the scalability of the solution and it sold me on the solution pretty much 100%. 

Within my network of dealers (we all work together and share resources, etc), we have done around 30-40 systems in the last year.

Without a doubt the biggest obstacle with Total Control is the network.  At a recent Total Control training seminar here in Los Angeles it was interesting to see a very clear split of dealers in the room.  Half of the dealers said they had troubles with TC and weren't very happy with it while the other half was arguing with them saying how much they loved it. At the end of the day the determining factor was simple - what kind of networks were being used and the dealers level of experience implementing networks. (Hint: STOP USING APPLE)

It's not necessarily that the dealer/programmer needs to be some networking guru - just that a standard $59.99 router from Best Buy simply can't handle the capacity of having a network-based system on it simultaneously with the rest of the traffic.

I won't install a system unless a client lets me completely redo their network - it's simply not an option.  That being said, the general price range before installation & programming that I sell is what I call the "Starter Kit" (Processor, AP, Router) ranges from $1,000 to $1,500 dependent on the AP and Router I am specifying.

You then need to add the control option (iOS, Remotes, Keypads), music options, etc. based on your needs.  I would say for 1-room basic control the average Total Control "Starter Package" ends up being around $2,500-$3,000 after all is said and done.  (Controller, iOS, Basic Remote, Router, High-End Wi-Fi Access Point, Installation, Programming)

That being said I can easily bring up cons about it... URC is definitely new to the TCP/IP world that is clear... but I am willing to stick with them through the obstacles as this is a great line!

Pros
  • Cost - I just proposed a system that wanted basic whole-home control in a 15,000 sq ft home.  Crestron came in at around $550,000 while TC came in at around $250,000 - in this case the system was almost identical in functionality (although I am sure Crestron would do more on the interface side).  This allowed me to keep the client because when they saw the Crestron bid their faces went pale... at least I had the TC backup proposal which they promptly accepted.
  • Programming - Wow... just...wow... the programming in this is unbelievably easy and it is actually pretty flexible when it comes down to it (more-so then C4 that is FOR SURE).  I could easily say Programming is a con to (lots missing that would make this the best solution by far)
  • Expandability - Not only can this system expand to 32 zones which i rarely go past (2 jobs in my companies history so far), it is easy to expand and doesn't take much engineering - if CAT6 (or CAT5e if you still run that) is available, there is a solution... makes our industry much easier to expand and work with.  Prices range from $900 to start with a system up to the sky is the limit
    TC + Just Add Power = :-)
  • Audio Distribution - Their audio distribution is second-to-none... no compression and surround sound/stereo sound working together seamlessly.  Reminds me of Crestron DM audio distribution at like 1/10th the cost.  I wish this was completely open-architecture TCP/IP so I could put these on every Crestron bid from now on... URC?! PLEASE?!
  • Remote Controls - Their remotes are the best you can get in a system like this without question.  They need more, yes... ($500-600 pricepoint WiFi Remote please!!!) but what they have customers love and I have beat every C4 bid I have gone against so far because of that fact alone (2 bids so far hah).
  • MFS Switches - I love that URC has these MFS switches which essentially help me put a backbone into the network infrastructure without programming a managed ethernet switch.  Makes working with their uncompressed audio a breeze.
Cons
  • They seem to be slow to update and don't have adequate tech support to handle the market they want to handle... i mean they close by 3 PM on the West Coast!  Luckily I never call them and just email the small things I couldn't fix myself
  • They seem to do updates to the system that break other features while fixing some.  They need to have two options for Accelerator "Release Candidate" and "Production" so those of us brave enough can test the updates before they come out to everyone. 
  • While they claim a SDK is coming, right now they have limited 2-way ability.  This hasn't really held me back and I actually kind of like it because I use it as a way to sell the much more expensive Crestron solution.
  • They are slow to respond to updates and problems.  When iOS6 came out the system wasn't working well for 1-2 months before the fix came out - NOT OKAY, luckily I had work arounds for all the problems but that could have been much worse.
  • Off-Site Programming has been publicly advertised (even to my customers via their press releases etc) since day 1 yet they have provided NO UPDATE on this ... where it is or why it is taking forever ... their respond? "Soon"  They said they would stop doing things like this when it was brought to their attention but sure enough a new press release just advertised it again... it's like their marketing team doesn't know the product (surprise?) and just knows what it was "supposed to have" 
    Note: I have a computer on most jobs and have solved this that way in the meantime.
  • They don't communicate well in general - I need to know everything that is going on.. if they are having a problem they generally won't admit it (everyone knows that is a URC problem in general not just TC).  I need a "known issues" area AND a "update history' so I know what the heck is in the newest update I just did... I also need a "Feature Roadmap" with updates to all the stuff they are working on so I know what is coming - how else can I engineer my systems to easily adapt to the new options?
  • DEBUGGING NOT INCLUDED - this is one I recently realized - you can't debug the darn system... when it locks up.. why?  Your guess is as good as mine!  
  • Their SNP-1 (web audio player) is already outdated and needs the services my clients want like Spotify and the service I want (heh) Songza.  Sonos has these but is a pretty terrible solution.  I do love the vTuner in the SNP-1 though, Radio Paradise is my go-to!
  • Their included drivers kind of suck - but that isn't really a con since you should be building your own for systems like this anyway...   They make it easy to use what they made and EDIT them though and this makes it WAY faster then starting from scratch (most drivers can be DONE in 15-30 minutes and used for every system from then on).
They aren't perfect - but at the price they are still a huge player... they have become my largest product line and I will support them until they really screw me or until I decide to build my own control infrastructure.  

Their product is rock-solid and in my opinion best in the industry in terms of value - it's really just the internal things that need to be resolved for this company to be the only one I use...

Last edited by Presinium on December 31, 2012 15:37.
Josh Edman
Los Angeles, CA
(888) 415 - 5855
Post 12 made on Monday December 31, 2012 at 15:35
Presinium
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Just updated my post so I wanted to *BUMP* this for everyone.  

Can anyone that has used both in-depth do a comparison for us between a line like C4 and TC?  I only did 2 C4 systems and wasn't a fan - but I am sure a comparison would be great!  (Hopefully someone that isn't biased towards one or the other as I would be if I attempted it).
Josh Edman
Los Angeles, CA
(888) 415 - 5855
OP | Post 13 made on Tuesday January 8, 2013 at 04:38
MrHaugen
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Thanks a lot for the detailed info, Josh. I appreciate that.

First of all.. I've been highly interested in IT for almost 20 years now, and worked professionally with it for 10 years. I think home network are better than most small to medium businesses out there. I've got 1 Gbit cabled network everywhere, fault tolerant servers, a virtual test and production environment, and a rather decent 48 TB SAN. So, this is not really my concern :-)

I would probably never use URC's own media networking capabilities either. I relay on my own media network with JRiver Media Center. It's the heart of all my viewing and listening experiences in my home, as well as outside of it. So, that will probably never change. I use phones and pads with android to push and pull music and video when it's suited. But I would like something else than this for my living room. A responsive system, that works for all equipment. A system where I can add more components. If it's a good system, I might include more controlling points for tue URC system in other rooms in the future. Money is not my big concern, but adding a lot of components to control a few units it not my biggest wish :)

My biggest concerns with this remote are how easy/hard it is to program, and if are any help available if I can't do it. I can't possibly justify having somebody come and program my remotes. I don't think there's much dealers of this system in Norway anyway. I'm way to techy and experimental for a system I can not upgrade my self. They would have to come by my house once a month to test out new features in my network. That's why I have a few very concrete questions I hope you can answer.

1. Would it be possible to show us the code of a simple driver, so I get an idea of how complicated this programming is? A portion of the code (if there is much) or a screenshot would probably do the trick.

2. If a person get's stuck with the programming, are there forum with helpful people that can help you out if you have some specific problems?

3. Regarding the Wifi responsiveness. Is it a problem in every day use? I expect it to take 2-3 seconds for it to connect to the Wif if it's not been touched for a long time. But will you have problems with the remote not reacting to commands you issue during a movie for instance? When you just pick up the remote and quickly want to change the volume or set the movie to pause?
Post 14 made on Thursday January 10, 2013 at 15:54
Presinium
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1. Would it be possible to show us the code of a simple driver, so I get an idea of how complicated this programming is? A portion of the code (if there is much) or a screenshot would probably do the trick.

It isn't code, it's URC built and you use HEX Code, IP Code, or Serial code to build the driver.

Their 2 way I think uses TCL but I'm not 100% sure - most of us (including me) don't use that or don't plan to... no need.


2. If a person get's stuck with the programming, are there forum with helpful people that can help you out if you have some specific problems?

Yes the forums are good lots of Remote Central people on there as well.    However you have to be a dealer/company to get access to this (or the product or the software).

3. Regarding the Wifi responsiveness. Is it a problem in every day use? I expect it to take 2-3 seconds for it to connect to the Wif if it's not been touched for a long time. But will you have problems with the remote not reacting to commands you issue during a movie for instance? When you just pick up the remote and quickly want to change the volume or set the movie to pause?

It pops up and says "Remote is Connecting to Network" and connects within a few seconds.  If it isn't connected, it can't be used so the user isn't pressing things wondering why it is not working.  

You define in settings how you want it to stay connected.  I usually set it to stay connected for 15 minutes when not charging and always stay connected when docked.  This generally is a good solution and doesn't cause any problems - you can set it to always be connected but your battery life is pretty much shot.  With my settings I get a whole day or more without problem (depends on use of course).
Josh Edman
Los Angeles, CA
(888) 415 - 5855
OP | Post 15 made on Wednesday January 16, 2013 at 05:16
MrHaugen
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On January 10, 2013 at 15:54, Presinium said...
It isn't code, it's URC built and you use HEX Code, IP Code, or Serial code to build the driver.

Their 2 way I think uses TCL but I'm not 100% sure - most of us (including me) don't use that or don't plan to... no need.


I'm not sure what you mean. You're saying that the programming tool that no one will part with, is basically a notepad that you program directly with HEX and Serial code and other low level programming. I'm sure there's more to it, but the answer gives me this picture. In case you can only program in this rather low level programming code, I understand that you need help to program them. I think it's pretty weird that you can't use more commonly used high level programming languages and other helpful tools in the program.

If much low level code is indeed needed, this leaves this option pretty much dead in my case. I programmed a simple CPU with binary and hex 12 years ago. And that's it. I know some VB.net, C++ and powershell. I guess this will not help me much.



I can not understand that nobody have created a remote with IR/Wifi/RF, touch and hard buttons and macro abilities, without the need for an intricate setup with control boxes. With a simple and intuitive program activity and button setup, and custom programming options for the needy.

I guess I just have to continue dreaming, and hope for better products in the next few years.
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