We just finished our home theater and neatly tucked away all the components behind some drywall. Our integrator is suggesting URC's MSC-400 and MX-980, but at a premium. In addition to the equipment, they want $455.57 to program aforementioned equipment from URC. For the price of the programming, I could pick up the Harmony 900 and do it myself. I typically would go ahead with the integrator, but the last time we had them out to install a Lutron control panel, they sent a rookie who spent the entire time on the phone with Customer Support and still charged us $330.60 for labor. When it was completed, the installer said I could have done this as apparently he learned how to do it that day, too. This put a sour taste in my mouth and would like to avoid another dealer-only item.

I simply need the RF remote to control the AVR, projector, BD player, STB, Lutron panel and possibly another amplifier and/or processor. I don't need over-the-top programming ability. Macros needed for 'Lights On', 'Lights Dim', Lights Off', 'Watch Movie', 'Watch TV', 'Listen to Music', etc. Will the Harmony 900 fit the bill or do I need to foot the bill for the URC equipment? (If only I had the software for the MSC-400 and MX-980, life would be golden.)

TIA.

Regards,
Bryan

Gee, I hope you can get to them! This makes it sound like they're sealed inside the wall!


What's "a premium"? To me that would be a $100 product for $120. If you're saying it has a price higher than you want to pay, okay, I understand that.


The Harmony remotes, in general, are not sold or programmed by installers because their operation cannot be made as simple as remote systems like the URC. The Harmony can get out of sync with the system, leaving the user to figure out what went wrong and correct it himself. Users who decide to go this route decide they will futz with the remote when it goes wrong. I think you can see that an installer cannot tolerate installing this kind of product, as the installer would then be on the hook to make it work properly again. The installer's choice of components, the URC, when set up, will work right every time (and will work easily if he's a good programmer).


What amount of time was billed? And how the hell does anybody in business come up with labor amounts such as $330.60 and $455.57?


If you're quoting him exactly, that's a non sequitur. You're saying you could have done this BECAUSE he learned how to do it that day. This even implies things might have been different on a different day!

If you're saying that he said it was pretty simple, that makes sense. Some individual parts of system installation are simple. The overall integration of parts, however, can easily become complex.


I agree with your reaction if you have accurately portrayed what happened. And, having that sour taste, I would have complained to the installer's company about how much time he was on the phone, how simple he said it was, and how many hours you were billed for the work (you didn't mention the actual time spent).

I suggest you gather the facts about that Lutron thing and start a thread in the Installers Forum, asking other installers if they feel you were charged fairly. You'll want to name the model of the Lutron product, the amount of hours billed, the billing rate, and, actually, the day of the week (Lutron's customer service is open on Sunday and that could have even been a factor in the charge). Be ready to be asked pointed questions if you leave out details. And if we agree with you, be ready to print out the discussion and show it to the installation company when asking for a refund.


Life would not then be golden, as you'd have to figure out how to use the software. While its basic use is not all that difficult, working out the macros to be as fast as possible, as efficient as possible, and as convenient and sensible as possible, are all skill gained by factory training and repetitive programming of remotes. And as an end user you won't have factory help available as they are ther to lend help to those who will program many remote systems, but not those who will only program one remote system.

In regards to the Lutron installation cost, it was a combination of 'Technician Labor' and 'Hardware & Materials'. No time was mentioned. Flat fee, I suppose, of $285.00. The rest made up of materials; i.e. the wiring to and from the keypads. At any rate, that's done and in the past. No need to go back to any one company requesting a refund. Just move on and stay away from this particular integrator.


We'll find out exactly as I'm having other local dealers quote me on the hardware. But based on other items quoted, they've added a nice markup.


Unless the software is in a foreign language, I bet it will be a nice learning curve. Save $450+, know the programming inside and out, and be able to modify the system as new components are added or taken away. Would hate to have bring the installer back when changes have been made to the system. It may not run correctly in the time a professional could do it, but I'm not working on any deadline. Perfection can wait as the satisfaction of doing it myself is worth more.

I'm not quite as much on your side as I was in my first reply. First, you wrote


That is, you said this was TO PROGRAM. Now you say


That is, you don't really know how much the programming was but you are complaining about the programming being too costly. I interpret this as you complaining about the overall cost but not being too interested in knowing why it is what it is -- how could you be, since you don't even have the details?


Bad idea. You're acting as though there's an infinite number of dealers out here, and that's far from true. I think if you are thorough in your analysis of what's bothering you, and reasonable in your discussions with them, particularly about the installer who seems to have taken way too much time, you will actually make a friend of the installing company. After all, what company would not want to know that their employee did not fight to charge only what was fair, instead of charging you for his OJT? This employee is likely to do that again, and you are the company's friend if you point this out to them... not bitching, not whining, but stating that you do not think you were charged fairly.


"A nice markup." Hmmm. I take it you know the wholesale prices? Or are you comparing with internet pricing, which a)is sketchy and b)does not come with a programmer and c)a programmer might not touch? I saw Panasonic phone systems on line for less than I can buy them. And the comments include "system came incomplete, dealer not responding, factory won't honor warranty." Does that kinda make a markup for an honest deal a bit more palatable?

Let's just say you know the company's wholesale cost and you'd like them to sell it to you at that price. You don't want to pay for the required shipping? You think they pay rent and power and employees with air? What you are calling markup is usually required by EVERY business to stay in business.


You cannot know, and because you won't take the training as it's not offered to you, you will be in the worst situation of ignorance: not knowing that you don't know.


Save some money now, maybe. Know the programming? Complete BS.


Then become a dealer -- it's even MORE satisfying doing this for a dozen or a hundred people -- and get the PROPER training. Otherwise choose product in the class you're in, which is do it yourself. I hear Harmony works for a lot of DIYers.

You have certainly taken this way out of context and I'm sorry if my responses bother you.


The $455.57 figure is for the URC programming. How did you misinterpret what I wrote?


More assumptions. Did I say I have internet pricing? I know URC's policies with internet sales. I am not looking to the internet for their product. Pay attention.


In fact, I do know. I now have the CCP software. Please stop acting like only trained professionals who take URC classes can ever know how to figure out this software.


Become a dealer because I want to learn about the software myself rather than pay another? You have lost your mind. But I appreciate all the responses; they have been enjoyable to read.

Hi Bryan, just offering my 0.02.

If $$$ is your only concern, then you already made up your mind and there is no real purpose to this post. If price is a concern but not the determining factor read on.

1st and most importantly don't base your purchase on price alone. Base it quality and reliability. If you really want a reliable system that works take the URC option.

2. $475 for custom programing is not that out of line if you consider a computer shop will charge you $100-$150 to install off the shelf packaged software (i.e windows 8). This would be customized to your needs and equipment.

3. I have 2 harmony 900 remotes I used for TVs upstairs. The key word here is USED as both of them are dead. In fact one of them was replaced 2x due to software issues, the other was hardware issues which was out of warranty so I technically had 3 of things 5 in total. Logitech software support is only 90 days so adding devices not in their database or trouble shooting macros is still going to cost you $$$ ($29.00 per call).

4. While the 900 does have RF ability it is not the greatest as seems to work when it wants to, you will have to use the help/guided help option more often then not.

5. With the dealer also pitching the msc400 what he is in fact doing is making your system bullet proof and will far exceed anything the 900 can do. With that said I would ask him for a heavy discount on the MSC400 if I were you or opt for the MRX1 or MRX2 which adds network functions.

6. What hardware are you using to control lights? I am unaware of the 900 having that function/feature as I was using Zwave devices and it had no option for that.

These is why I say price is not something to consider, 3 at $230 a pop plus 2 replacements in 2.5-3 years that’s over $700 and neither work.

It's been a little while now, but I'm sure Ernie would love to hear an update.

I decided to go with the MX-980 remote and a MRF-350 base station. I purchased both through a URC dealer. Opted out of their programming and tackled the programming myself. Having zero experience with the software or programming other URC remotes, it was quite an easy task to accomplish. The remote works flawlessly and I couldn't be happier with my decision.

Thanks, Ernie, for the motivation. :)

I came to this thread because the buttons on my URC remotes are wearing out, and I need to do something about it. Either get them fixed, or replace them, and I've been investigating whether Harmony (or something else) can do what I'm doing with my collection of MX900's and MX850's.

The latest Harmony models even have a cool hub that seems to integrate a number of technologies, but I just don't see a way I can handle even simple things like the fact I need to control a pair of DVR's that are stuck using the same code set in the same location.

I'd love to use something "meant for me", but those products are invariably too crippled.

Anyway, I still get a kick that people call setting up a remote control "programming" or think something about it is inherently hard.

I personally would be quite interested in a remote control that could be programmed in a real programming language with real programming tools.

A basic hard button remote in quantity only costs a few dollars to produce. Add a decent processor and a display to that with USB, bluetooth, and/or WiFi and it's only a few dollars more.

I suppose if I didn't consider hard buttons a necessity, I'd just use an old iOS or Android device.

Sounds like a fine kickstarter project.