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Topic:
KeyPadLinc w/o neutral
This thread has 11 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 22:42
voyager9
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I'm trying to install a KeyPadLinc into a simply single-outlet circuit. My goal is to use the KeyPadLinc to control both the hardwired outlet directly as well as other outlets through X10.

When I went to install the unit I found only a single cable containing the black, white, and ground wires. After doing some reading I'm guessing that the switch is at the end of the circuit. Is that a fair guess? otherwise wouldn't there be another cable with another white/black/ground combo which goes to the outlet?

My question is, how do I install the KeyPadLinc into this switch box? In the documentation for the KeyPadLinc it says I need to use cable black to line, white to neutral, and red to the load. I cabled black to black, white to white, and capped yellow and red wires. After power was applied I could control X-10 devices, but the hardwired outlet would not work.

I guess it makes sense that the outlet doesn't work since Load is capped, but what do I tie this into? Is it safe to tie the red and white wires on the KeyPadLinc into the white wire heading out of the box?

I'm rather new to this. Any help will be appreciated.
Dave
Post 2 made on Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 23:00
Larry Fine
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On 01/20/04 22:42, voyager9 said...
|
Is it safe to tie the red and white wires
on the KeyPadLinc into the white wire heading
out of the box?

No! Don't do that!

The only reason the keypad worked is because you had something plugged into the receptacle.

Here's what you had before you messed with it:

In the receptacle's box, the incoming (neutral) is connected to the receptacle as usual, but the incoming black (hot) is connected to the switch loop's white*, and the switch loop's black (switched hot) returns to control the receptacle.

* (This is done so the receptacle (or fixture) doesn't have two whites connected to it.)

I suggest you do this: Replace the keypad with one that doesn't have a built-in dimmer (save it for another use), replace the receptacle with an X-10 unit (or use a dimmer module), and re-wire behind the receptacle so the switch's black and white are normal hot and neutral.

(I would also leave a message somewhere (Sharpied on the back of the plate, maybe, or on a note in a baggie inside the box) that the switch box now contains a hot and neutral, and a standard switch should NOT be used.)

The other option would be to replace the 2-conductor cable with a 3-conductor cable, in which case you would still re-wire so the black and white are hot and neutral, and the red would be the returning switched hot.

Hope this was helpful.

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com
OP | Post 3 made on Tuesday January 20, 2004 at 23:14
voyager9
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Thanks Larry.
That is kinda what I figured.. tying things together didn't make sense to me, but thought it was worth asking about.

My fear now is that all the cable in my house is 2-conductor. In which case I may not be able to use the Keypad in place of any switch.

BTW: If I had cabled the Keypad such that the incoming white tied to keypad red, would the opposite situation arise? Would I be able to control the local outlet, but not send/receive X10 commands?
Post 4 made on Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 10:37
Larry Fine
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I doubt every switch in the house is a switch loop.

The incoming hot (white) should connect to the KP black, and the returning black to the KP red.

The improper way to do what you want is to:

Connect the KP black to the incoming white, the KP red to the returning black, and the KP white to the bare wire. (Don't tell nybody I told you to use the bare wire; it's a secret!)

I would first make sure the white is used as the hot by checking that it's connected to the black behind the receptacle, just in case someone didn't do that properly.

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com
OP | Post 5 made on Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 16:35
voyager9
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Thanks again, Larry. You've been a great help.
I think I'm going to replace the KP with a different switch. Something like the SwitchLinc RX seems to be idea for my situation. Has anyone heard any complaints about it?

I'm going to see if I can use the KP upstairs. Hopefully the switch in the bedroom isn't a switch loop.
Post 6 made on Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 20:49
Larry Fine
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That looks like just the ticket. Remember to connect the RX black to the incoming white, and the RX red to the returning black.

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com
OP | Post 7 made on Wednesday January 21, 2004 at 22:15
voyager9
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I installed the KP upstairs in the bedroom. The swtich there was exactly as the documentation for the KP pictured. The installation seemed to go pretty smoothly. Now I'm seeing some strange behavior:
1) If I do a factory reset on the KP, it controls the load using the ON/OFF buttons. When I set a primary X10 address to it, I cannot use those buttons anymore. I tried to assign those buttons to X10 address + ON/OFF respectively with no luck. Also, the A and B buttons won't stay off. When I turn them off the KP seems to get X10 signals to turn them back on (status light blinks then they turn back on).
2) When I plug the LampLinc into an outlet in the bedroom, I cannot program it, even using an IR-543 plugged directly into the same outlet. The status light on the LampLinc does not even blink when I send codes. If I plug it into the outlet in a different room it works fine. Could this be a signal strength issue? I woudln't think strength would be an issue if the IR is plugged into the same outlet as the LampLinc.

Any help/ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave
Post 8 made on Thursday January 22, 2004 at 18:53
RWI
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I have a keypad linc (6 button) and can say that they do act weird. What I did to get mine to work is this:

1. set up the primary address
2. assign a button to the integral dimmer
3. changed all other buttons to non toggled mode and gave them address's

If you read the manual a few times you will get the hang of it. If it whacks out, reset it and try it again, after a lot of screwing around I got it work good for me.

As for the lamplinc, it sound like you have a signal or noise problem. You can try unplugging things (tv's, power strips, computers if one of these does the trick then add a filter to the offender. In general if you plan to build you system you might want to filter all of these throughout your home and consider a quality coupler/repeater. After doing this My whole home performs great (search this forum for lots of info on trouble shooting)
Post 9 made on Thursday January 22, 2004 at 22:58
jazzman
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Larry did I hear that right about the about the bare wire? (he! he!) I had already decided that no way would I bring that up as I would surely suffer your rath!
Post 10 made on Thursday January 22, 2004 at 23:56
Larry Fine
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That's "wrath", and as I said, it's a secret. Shh! Don't tell anybody.
OP | Post 11 made on Friday January 23, 2004 at 08:55
voyager9
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Thanks for all the replies. I tried to assign a button to the dimmer, and as long as it was one of the smaller toggle buttons it seemed to work. I wasn't able to set the bigger On/Off buttons to the dimmer. I'll take a stab at setting up the KP again once I get the noise issues resolved.

As far as the noise goes, I'm gonna go around and unplug all my A/V and Computer equiptment and play again with the lamplincs, that should tell me if I have a noise issue. Assuming it is, it makes sense to put filters on that stuff. My question is how do I know what amp filter to use? Looking at AF100/120 it looks like I have a 5 or 15 amp option.

Thanks,
Dave
Post 12 made on Monday January 26, 2004 at 02:39
jazzman
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Yeah I blew my keyboard with some compressed air and now the "w" works just fine.


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