I have a project where I pretty much have to decide by morning if I'm going to go the Zigbee route or 433.

We have an XP8 in the system, and for now only two T2C 's, the house is wired for in-wall controls in every room and will eventually have at least 5-6 handhelds.

No Sub-system control. Everyroom of the house has a TV and they will be using AppleTV's for now as their main audio source.

We are using a Denon 4310 and may also use the Sirius portion of it. System also has a Zektor Clarity 8x8 matrix.

The only feedback info we would be going for would be an iPod dock (escient or IW iPort) and feedback from the Denon (radio now playing, Sirius Radio Now playing, volume).

The job is in San Francisco with TONS of RF noise. I picked up at least 10 WiFi's while standing in the living room.

So, will zigbee be a reliable solution or should i stick with 433? I really want to do zigbee and have plenty options for upgrading their system, but it has to be reliable or it isn't worth it.

I have done a little with the 2-way and RTI, but it was on a K4 and XP8, haven't worked with any of the handhelds yet.

If you want the feedback from the iport, you have to go zigbee.

I've had very mixed results with the zigbee. If there is no need for frrdback, i'd go 433. If you can give them the OSD from the escient and 2 way from in walls, and talk them out of 2 way volume and sirius on the handhelds, and hav ethem use th in walls for that, i'd go 433.

For me, the zigbee is slow, has remote latency and phantom operation, and the range isn't as good as they say it is, and it takes 3-5 seconds to connect from sleep.

If you know you have alot of RF, i'd do a tester system. Set up 2 remotes with basic volume control, etc, bring them both, and see how it behaves.

That being said, I have had homes where there was so much noise that the RM433 was constantly red.

Take a ZM24 and a T2CZ remote and do a site survey with the "test" driver that RTI has supplied. Walk around the site and see how often you get drops.

I've found that as long as the ZM24 was 10ft or more from any WAPs that wireless wasn't much of an issue. I suppose it would depend on the WAP and other factors... but testing it would make the most sense.

The "reconnect" time is minimal, after the latest firmware updates.

That's all you need is about six trips across $5 bridges with parking problems each time you have to deal with issues. How do you $pell lot$ of dollar$ lo$t?

Maybe your guinea pig client should be closer to home??

The largest ZigBee install we have done has 2 XP-8's, 4 ZRP-6's; each with a ZM-24 and a T3-Vz. There are also 2 RK3's and 9 RKM-1's. It has been fun to set up but seems to be stable. Read the ZigBee installation manuals as they are of great value. It is not like a 433MHz model in that the processors and antennas can be loaded and powered up at any time. The first XP-8 in the system acts as the co-ordinator and the other processors with ZM-24's connected are repeaters. We also needed 2 stand alone ZM-24's to complete the network based on the ZigBee test driver. There is still some programming to complete and refinement of the GUI but it does seem to work well.

My personal system relies on 2-way as well with an XP-8 and T3-V with drivers for an Escient FP-1. Kaleidescape and Aprilaire 8870 and this has not given me any concern. I have an Apple Airport Express near the antenna and 2 WiFi networks n my house with no interference issues. AndyM is dead right suggesting that you test the network. Stand-alone ZM-24's solved reliability issues for us.

I do recommend that you play with the ZigBee products before you put them in field.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm confident that I can work around the AP's and Phones, but I'm going to stick with 433 and if he ends up wanting any type of feedback, he'll have to get an in-wall.

I called RTI Tech support to ask some questions. They said to keep the ZM24, 25 feet away from any WAP's or Cordless phone stations. This is just too much in a City. Sure I can get just to the edge of 25' from the WAP and maybe the phone, but whats in the neighbors house just 10' away? Even then, I felt like once you get it all up and running its pretty stable.

What it came down to is that driving to SF and finding parking can easily be 3 horus round trip just in travel time and I'm not ready to take on service calls like that for free, especially since they really don't need any 2way control with a 65" tv and on screen display for nearly everything these days.

While on the phone with RTI, I asked if there was ANY reason why we should stick with 433 and not do zigbee, he said "no" and that their system has been very stable and reliable in many systems across the country including New York & Chicago.

I then asked that if we put in a Zigbee system and its unstable, if they'd swap it out for the 433 parts.....he said "NO." I guess their confidence in the product isn't that high yet. Of course, he was probably just covering his ass, but to be honest, we don't have the time to spend "troubleshooting" (b/c that's really what it is) the zigbee network to determine its range and where/if more repeaters are needed AND THEN doing it again once the 2nd antenna is installed to see how it has affected the first.

THis is exactly how I would've answered this question too. I agree with Fish 100%.

I think 433 MHz signals are, by their nature, just more stable than ANYTHING at 2.4 Ghz.  They have ~6 times the range, are better at going through solid objects, and require less power.  I really don't get why everyone is jumping on the 2.4 Ghz spectrum; especially since that frequency has been jammed full for a long time.

What I'm doing now is saying that unless there is a critical need for feedback of some sort on a handheld, they're getting a one-way handheld.  I'd rather sell stability than features right now.

My question is: Is it worth taking a half hour to do a site survey? Even if this customer doesn't "need" zigbee, it might be useful the next time this situation comes up. You might learn something that will save you tenfold later.

This is assuming that you have a ZM24 and zigbee remote in hand... I don't know that I would order new stuff just to test.

Probably not because he has little faith in the equipment, but because circumstances in the field can vary so much. Swapping out equipment with the installer means the creation of B stock. That's an instant money loser for the manufacturer. Or for the distributor. Can you imagine how they would administer that? Would you be okay with buying RTI equipment that someone else could not make work, and paying regular price for it?


Yes, it sure is.


As far as I can tell, that IS what's requred. That's why I'm reading these threads and not installing Zigbee yet -- I want it rock solid when I do it.

Just a side note:

Once you've added the 2nd antenna, make sure you power the remote off and turn it on within a foot of the 2nd ZM24.  Then, you will be testing ONLY the 2nd ZM24.  Your remote will only be talking to the 2nd one.  The 2nd ZM24 will be talking to the 1st one, but your remote won't.  Wow I need to come up with a better way to explain that.  :)

When you reboot the remote near a new ZM24, it locks on to it.  You can walk the remote back to your 1st ZM24 and press buttons all day and it will be trying to send commands to your 2nd ZM24 even though you're standing right next to the 1st one.  You can watch the activity LED on the 1st one and it won't blink at all.

If you DON'T reboot the remote and add a 2nd ZM24, you'll ONLY be talking to the 1st ZM24.

Fun, isn't it?

Very simple READ the Tech doc on the RTI WEB site - 1 REMOTE can only have One parent . Parent = zm24 . ZM24 can have many children . you CANNOT roam between parents . Design you systems by TESTING the site first . This will involved investing in some money in RTI but will solve all the issues and your money in the future . Going back cost you money and the RTI Story is get in get out . The tools for testing zigbee are on the dealer section . if the client doesn't really need two way then 433 is your best friend ! it works and it will ALWAYS work in a 1 way solution . some times technology makes us go 2 steps forward 3 back . mmmm is the light on or is it off ???

LOL

After all my complaining, I finally got to set up Zigbee on this ~6,000 sq ft house I'm working on. 

One ZM24 in the basement and I get coverage everywhere I need on the 1st floor and the 2nd floor... including [in spots] going through marble tiles on both floors.

WTF.  :)

my biggest issue with zigbee is that you can not extend the zigbee network via hardwire. you are forced to wirelessly jump between bases.
meaning you have to find a good spot for the repeater where it
has good signal, and you have a power outlet for it, and it can be hidden.
those 3 requirements dont always come together.

why not let us hardwire them over cat5 . .


so my question is,
can i set up an XP8 with two way modules,
and have ZRP6's around the house that wire back to the
XP8. . each ZRP6 with its own ZM24 hard wired to it,
and from those local ZRP6's get two way information
from the XP8 . . so the ZRP6 would really just act as a hardwired
version of an extender . .