To contact Denon USA:

Go to AVS forum (avscience.com), go to the Special Guests forum and find the Jeff Talmage thread. Jeff is the marketing manager or something. He has been out of town for this week, but he answers questions, including occasionally assisting someone who has a repair issue.

I tried reaching tech support this week, but the email box is full and rejecting emails. Pretty poor support on the web, try to find a phone number. There probably is one you can find in Jeff's thread at AVS, or just in the 3803 manual.

Oh, and, there basically is NO receiver around $1000 that can truly handle loud output for 7 channels with low-mid sensitivity speakers. Like I've mentioned, I've got an Onkyo 898 (MSRP 1500) that is similar in spec to the 3803. If I wasn't running Klipsch Refs at 98db sensitivity, I'd not be able to get enough clean power either. (no, that's not why I got the Klipsch)

As you probably know, the 5 db difference between my speakers and yours (or the ones you're considering?) means almost 4 times the wattage would be necessary to get the same volume. 3db increase needs double the power, roughly.

You remind me of the guys who invented the sound ripped off by THX, where random notes converge on a chord: Beaver and Krause. In about 1970 these guys put out a record on the WB label, done with synthesizers that could only play one note at a time, that included about a thirty second long "THX" sound -- but obviously way ahead of THX. I wish THX credited them every time this is played - the THX version is just a short ripoff of the real thing.

It is worth looking for this. My local (Hollywood, CA) Tower Records always has one in stock. Play THAT for your kids! It takes so long and is so dramatic that it makes you feel like you are falling over. Only drawback is the bass doesn't go much below 100 Hz on that particular cut.

Well, where's the fun in that if my SVS doesn't get a workout? ;)

I was just watching some show this weekend for football and discovered someone had ripped-off the old style THX chord. They masked it with some other music, but it was definitely there, I played it a couple times to check. I wonder if I'll see it next week...course, I'd have to remember which show...

My great uncle used to have LPs of trains starting and stopping. I would LOVE to find some of these, too. I should start shopping around.

I had the same problem...............
turn up the front center and rightgains up and U will be happy:)

With all due respect, that doesn't make sense. Turning up the gain on some channels won't help if you are already straining your amp at reference level.

Make sure you don't have the Tape Monitor on - it always happens to my wife and our AVR4800. If its not that, check the speaker level in the setup: at the least they should all be at the halfway mark. gl

Suddenly it occurs to me: is there any source out there that drives all seven channels loud? At the same time?

This power rating, noted by somebody to be two channels driven, is a little weird, too. If you are plahing surround, and two channels are driven, then you have sound in, what, your center and front left? That sounds like a measurement in stereo. And the 110 x 7 is saying that if you can put in enough voltage, you will get out 110 watts (but then they fudge by not pointing out that it is not the nature of 5.1 or any other format to have equal level signals all around, so their number is meaningless).

As for the issue of gain, and how hard one is pushing the amp, well, when you adjust the volume control, you do not adjust the gain. Amps are built with set amounts of gain, and the volume control attenuates the signal going into the amp in order to lower the level coming out of the amp.

And if your signal level going into the volume control is low, then the control will have to be turned higher to get more output. Depending on the input level, full volume might give you ten watts!

I have found many digital sources with levels that do not match other sources. Typically the digitals will be lower in volume for a given volume setting, but occasionally higher. To prove how much your receiver can put out, feed it an FM antenna signal and see how loud your speakers will play. The receiver is designed to be able to play at full volume from its tuner's audio signal.

THEN if you do not have enough volume with digital, you will know it is not for lack of power amp, but lack of signal voltage before the power amp.

Couple thoughts.

There are test sources that will play all channels loud. Or pretty much any source if you shift your receiver into "7 Channel Stereo".
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Go look at some of these receiver specs if you want. Mine says something like '110wpc, RMS, <.08%THD, Left + Right'. Then it has 3 more lines that basically duplicate this saying 'Center', 'Left Surround + Right Surround', and 'Left Back Surround + Right Back Surround'. The key point is it only says "Left + Right' on that first line, meaning it's only measured to 110wpc with those 2 channels driven. Same for the other lines for the other channels. Tricky language, no doubt. So, it's just a testing/marketing number, it isn't supposed to match to your real world playback of music or movies.

Now, a quality power amp will have better specs. The Sunfire Cinema 7 Signature, for example. It says 400wpc, RMS, All Channels Driven, <.5%THD. So, this amp should be able to actually put out 400 wpc if driven hard, and 3rd party tests usually show Sunfire amps to be underrated by a few wpc. Unfortunately, Bob always rates his with higher THD ratings than most (.5% is quite high), kind of annoying for comparisons.

But like I said above, you won't get that for $1000. The Sunfire is something like $4000, and it's just an amp, no preamp. Other good amps with honest 100-200wpc ratings are often in the $1500-2000 range.
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For the issue of input power, that usually is not a problem. Today's receivers generally have circuits to counteract this issue. My Onkyo can be set with a +-10db adjustment to each input so the volume will be at similar levels if one source is much quieter/louder than another.

This was a big problem for people using unpowered SV subs with certain receivers that have a surprisingly low output voltage on the subwoofer preout. These people bought good pro amps, but ran into the exact problem you mentioned. That is, the sub, powered by the external amp (without gain), couldn't match the output of the other speakers. So they had to put a gain box in between the receiver and external amp. Not the slickest solution, but this would work with extreme cases going from source to receiver, also.

Your set-up should almost be painfully loud at 0db. It sounds like the 3803 is configured incorrectly, and definitely upgrade your interconnects (rule out the easy stuff). I know that SACD is a different animal, but I run the DENON 3803 with Atlanic Technology 20LCR's w/ external sub in one showroom, and let me tell you.....when I demo Pink Floyds "The Dark Side of the Moon" SACD......it is bone rattling LOUD at 0db (It's like a ride, you fell it). This holds true for movies, audio, and any source inputs (Obviousily, not to the level of SACD).

Make sure the speaker config is set to small. I'm pressuming digital Optical interconnect from DVD, config 3803 appropiately (See DVD1600 maual PDF pages 16,19,20)....as well as set front end to AUTO. Verify polarity. *NOTE* Also problem could result from DVD1600 config as well, keep in mind that it has its own built in decoder for 5.1 analog output, again see DVD1600 maual for proper config w/ 3803 as well as your connection types. Turn V.S.S. off.

Finally, if problem is fixed as of current.....post your findings/fix!!!

RGP
www.audioelite.net

I've never gone beyond -5db.

I haven't yet calibrated/leveled/etc my speakers, since my theater room isn't in its final arrangement yet, but I can't turn up my 3803 beyond -5 or so. I usually watch TV around -30 to -25 and listen to the stereo between -25 and -15. Turning it to 0 is almost painful. I think it dials all of the way to +20.

David

Receiver: Denon AVR-3803
Front: Klipsch RB-75
Center: Klipsch RC-35
Surrounds: Klipsch RS-35
Subwoofer: James Loudspeaker EMB-1000

Very good points, Robert.

I should have said more above. When I said no $1000 receiver can put out extremely loud levels, I should've added room size. JSap and I have large rooms. Mine is half my basement (about 13x40x7.5), and even though I only use half the room for the HT, the loudness is still affected by the size of the room.

If you guys have your setup in a room that is smaller, you can probably double or quadruple the db capability of an amp. Although it does seem strange that he could go to +8 and still not have enough volume. I went to 0 for one THX trailer and made all of my kids cry. (won't be doing that again!) I seldom approach -5, -15 is more my taste if nobody else is in the house. Getting higher is usually because of a very quiet recording, I often have to bump music discs up to -10 or higher. If there's anyone else upstairs, I have to keep it at -25 or below, often with Dolby dynamic compression on.

I have been away for a while but here is the run down. I upgraded my DVD1600 to a DVD2200 and love it. Much better build and layer changes. When I added my new Monitor 7s , I changed the speaker size from small to large for the fronts and center in the 3803. The sub was set to LFE only. So the real problem was no bass from the sub. Changing the sub to LFE + main solved the problem. Or changing all the speakers to small and the sub to LFE + main. I chose the latter and have much better volume.

That doesn't change the fact that I don't believe the 3803 can deliver 770W (110W x 7) total power. I am happier but still might move the fronts to a separate sometime in the further but for now the AVR3803 + DVD2200 are working fine. Thank Everyone.