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Topic:
4221 antenna ... how directional is it?
This thread has 8 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Monday December 4, 2006 at 16:06
yardbird
Active Member
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July 2005
538
Ok. Admitted newcomer to OTA HD. (last night!). I am trying to get a feel for how directional an antenna like the 4221 would be. I'm in Sanborn, NY (on top of the escarpment, not below it). Grand Island is roughly SSW (and real close) and Toronto is about NNW.

So my question is... using a 4-bay like the 4221, I have no doubts about picking up grand island, but would it get Toronto too? Off the backside? Or would you "aim' it at Toronto and ... well I know it'll get Grand Island anyways because I'm getting grand island VERY well now with a dipole from an old FM stereo receiver, a couple of alligator clips, some scotch tape and what is probably the incorrect matching transformer for such a cobbled together mouse trap (75ohm to 75ohm).

A reason for my question is this...
I don't want to get crazy with antennas (I've got 2 satellite dishes up there as it is!) and if an antenna like the 4221 is not going to get Toronto pretty reliably, then rather than stick the antenna up above the roof, I was wondering about just sticking it on the side of my house up by the peak... kinda like a painting :) hehe.
Panasonic TH42PX60U, Yamaha RX-V667, DirecTV HR24, Sony DVP-NC80V, URC MX-980, PSX-2
Post 2 made on Monday December 4, 2006 at 17:26
markrpopp
Long Time Member
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November 2006
19
That antenna will not allow You to get stations on the back side. You might have to move it between grand Island & south Buffalo to get all the local ones. For Toronto Your defiantly going to need a rotor. Ask Yourself do You want it all...... I do and it's worth it.
OP | Post 3 made on Monday December 4, 2006 at 19:20
yardbird
Active Member
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538
Actually... heheh... gonna be more like..."Does the wife want it all?"
Programming.... we're talking programming. Ok let me ask this next question then (sorry.... but I haven't had to deal with antennas and rotors in a long time)...

Is there a rotor that "knows which way to turn based on channel selection"? That's her question actually. See... she doesn't want to have to remember that it needs to point *here* for this station and *there* for that station. And if you're laying in bed with the remote, what good is that if you have to get up to turn the antenna? I can see her point on that one.

And eventually... when I have 2 TVs on HD... do you then need 2 antennas? That seems a bit inconvenient. Maybe I'll concentrate on just getting the easy ones first and investigate programming on the Toronto-based stations to see if they offer something I can't live without.

I'm not sure which are Grand Island based and which are south buffalo stations. I mean I know SOME of the ones on Grand Island, but I get 2,4,7,17,23,and 49 now with my "franken-tenna"... yeah... she named it... I might have another one in there that I didn't list. Sorry for all the questions. Just want to have a handle on where to take this, what to spend, etc.
Panasonic TH42PX60U, Yamaha RX-V667, DirecTV HR24, Sony DVP-NC80V, URC MX-980, PSX-2
Post 4 made on Monday December 4, 2006 at 20:39
OTAHD
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
October 2005
4,679
On December 4, 2006 at 19:20, yardbird said...
Actually... heheh... gonna be more like..."Does the wife
want it all?"
Programming.... we're talking programming. Ok let me ask
this next question then (sorry.... but I haven't had to
deal with antennas and rotors in a long time)...

Is there a rotor that "knows which way to turn based on
channel selection"? That's her question actually. See...
she doesn't want to have to remember that it needs to
point *here* for this station and *there* for that station.
And if you're laying in bed with the remote, what good
is that if you have to get up to turn the antenna? I can
see her point on that one.

Most rotors remember the channel. Check out the ones from Channel Master.

And eventually... when I have 2 TVs on HD... do you then
need 2 antennas? That seems a bit inconvenient. Maybe
I'll concentrate on just getting the easy ones first and
investigate programming on the Toronto-based stations
to see if they offer something I can't live without.

You can just use a splitter

I'm not sure which are Grand Island based and which are
south buffalo stations. I mean I know SOME of the ones
on Grand Island, but I get 2,4,7,17,23,and 49 now with
my "franken-tenna"... yeah... she named it... I might
have another one in there that I didn't list. Sorry for
all the questions. Just want to have a handle on where
to take this, what to spend, etc.

Go to [Link: remotecentral.com] and look at the map.
LET'S GO BUFFALO!!!
OP | Post 5 made on Tuesday December 5, 2006 at 10:33
yardbird
Active Member
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Posts:
July 2005
538
OTAHD,

Thanks for the link to the map. I knew I saw it someplace. Actually I'm getting all the "south buffalo" stations along with all the grand island stations using my cobbled together "Franken-tenna" (I like that nickname, actually). My hope is that getting something like the Silver Sensor would give at LEAST what I'm getting now on alligator clips, scotch tape and an FM dipole :)

Regarding a splitter... if you only have one antenna, and 2 TVs, and someone in the bedroom wants to watch a grand island based station but someone in the family room wants to watch a Toronto based station.... the antenna STILL only points in one direction. Who wins? :)

Is it possible to mount (for example) a 4221 aimed south on the south side of my house and a 4221 aimed northwest on the north side of my house and connect the 2 together so you didn't have to do any switching? Or would I run into all kinds of problems with phasing or something if I tried that?
Panasonic TH42PX60U, Yamaha RX-V667, DirecTV HR24, Sony DVP-NC80V, URC MX-980, PSX-2
Post 6 made on Sunday December 17, 2006 at 00:50
splat10
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
January 2006
17
you may have ok results with a decent omni-directional but I doubt it. THose don't seem to work for anything. If you can go to Lowes they have UHF only and you can return them if they have multi-path issues. If you are using a 4221 then they are very directional (about 10 degrees max in my experience) so you shouldn't have multipath problems if you combine them. VHF may be a problem though if you have some of those.
Post 7 made on Sunday December 17, 2006 at 08:50
texasbrit
Founding Member
Joined:
Posts:
December 2001
524
The 4221 has a pretty wide beamwidth, it is 45 to 50 degrees, I don't know where the 10 degrees came from. Even the CM4228 has about a 15 degree beamwidth. Because of the way the CM4221 and CM4228 are constructed they have better pickup from the rear than a UHF yagi but it's not something I would rely on - worth experimenting though. I've seen posts from people with CM4221 s getting great results from stations at 15 miles exactly 180 degrees away from the direction the antenna is pointing. And the only UHF antennas that have any decent VHF capability are the CM4228 and the antennas direct 91XG. Most of the others are worse than "rabbit ears". The CM4221 can be OK if you have close-in VHF stations but not for any distance.
The CM4221 and CM4228 are not good at rejecting multipath, partially because they do have a wider beamwidth than UHF yagis. The 91XG is excellent at reducing multipath partially because its beamwidth is very narrow (less than 10 degrees).

Coupling two antennas is a lottery at the best of times, unless one is VHF and the other is UHF. The signals from any given station arrive at the antennas at slightly different times and so the signals are out of phase with each other when they get to your receiver. This is essentially the same as multipath - in the worst case you end up with no reception at all. Antennas with decent pickup of the back of the antenna, and with wide beamwidth, or pointing at 180 degrees to each other, are worse when coupled together than narrow beam-width antennas. And of course coupling an omnidirectional antenna to another is the worst scenario.

However, many people have successfully coupled antennas together, it is entirely dependent on your situation and pretty well impossible to predict.

FYI this [Link: hdtvprimer.com] is a useful site when looking at antennas.
OP | Post 8 made on Tuesday December 19, 2006 at 09:02
yardbird
Active Member
Joined:
Posts:
July 2005
538
Ok this is just a brief update. I have a Silver Sensor now. This is just to get rid of the cobbled together "franken-tenna". Holy cow, what a difference already. Have not tried any Canadian stations, but I got a really good increase in signal strenth across the board. Channel 2's HD broadcast was the weakest from the beginning. On the franken-tenna it hovered around 50% and would drop out completely pretty often. Channel 4's HD broadcast was around 60% and would occasionally pixelate and/or stutter the audio.

All stations are now stable. Channel 2 HD is about 75%, Channel 4 HD is in the 80-85% range and the grand island stations and channel 7 are all at 95-100%. The silver sensor is sitting behind the TV, out of sight. If I set it up higher, the signal strength improves again... noticeably.... but my wife says it's ugly.

For now, and for $25, this works for me. I will explore the better antenna solutions after it warms up in the spring. I'm not likely to get up on the roof any time soon.

Thank you all for all the help and suggestions (and knowledge) and I will keep coming in here to try to stay abreast of what's happening around me.
Panasonic TH42PX60U, Yamaha RX-V667, DirecTV HR24, Sony DVP-NC80V, URC MX-980, PSX-2
Post 9 made on Tuesday December 14, 2010 at 17:31
Antenna Guy
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
November 2010
8
I think you might have a chance with that set-up. I do that quite often in Toronto, aiming at Grand Island or Buffalo with the CN Tower at least 90 degrees out of phase. Because the signal is so close and powerful, I am able to pull in signals from the side or back.

Try it - it might actually work.

Like Sherlock Holmes used to say "Rule out everything, and whatever is left, no matter how preposterous - is your solution"
Why Pay for FREE TV?
The Antenna Guys / The HD Antenna Store
881 St. Clair Ave. W., Toronto


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