I have a friend who has a place near Wellsville, NY. Using a very large, directional VHF/UHF antenna from midway up a pretty high hill, he can get 2,4, and 7 from Buffalo crystal clear, 24/7. (Only uses analog TV). 62, a rebroadcast of WNED from Friendship, also comes in this well. This is with the antenna pointed from Buffalo. I am sure he could pull in some from Rochester, etc by rotating it, but this has not been tried yet. He gets WB 49 consistantly, but often with snow (other times clear.) WNLO 23 and WUTV 29 also come in, with snow. TBN 26 from Jamestown also comes in with snow. (Funny, antennaweb.org says only 2,4,7 and 62 will come in, maybe the high altitude helps...). Anyways, there is no preamp currently installed. He is considering installing a preamp to help analog reception. I know not to use RadioShack. Any reccomendations on a good one for this use? He is looking to improve reception on WNYO, WUTV, and WNLO. I know a preamp probably will help and I think a Channel Master or Winegard is probably the way to go. I have looked at the CM 7777 and CM 7778. I like the 7778 because it has less amplification(16 db) on VHF, so that 2,4, and 7 are not over-amplified, while still having a 23 db gain on UHF. The VHF is still desired for Rochester stations, etc. The preamp will also help when he needs to convert to ATSC in 2009. Any suggestions??

Looks like you have it handled, although you might consider a Radio Shack rental. This is what we called it in the early 90s when a guy would buy a video camera on a Friday night, then return it as unsuitable on Monday morning. Radio Shack's generous return policy could help you.

I have found Radio Shack antenna stuff to be okay, and you might find it does very nicely for you.

To begin with, I would go for even less than 16 dB. If you are getting stations with snow, but not LOTS of snow, then an amp with 16 dB of gain might distort, giving you crummy results on channels that were okay before. You are right to try to treat the VHF and UHF separately, as they are performing separately. If you are limited for some reason to an amp with the same game on VHF as UHF, there is a band separator that will take the antenna signal in, and output VHF from one port and UHF from the other port. When I have done hairy systems for stores with hundreds of TVs, this was just one of the signal level control tools. I can sell you one of these if you can't find it, and you probably can't.

Anyway, try a RadShack amp and see what happens! It couldn't hurt!

Thanks for the reply--

The 7778 has 16 db gain on VHF and 23db gain on UHF. The 3 VHF channels come in without snow all of the time--so would 16 db gain be too much for those? There is 23db gain on UHF. The amount of snow can vary depending on the day--sometimes there is quite a bit on certain UHF Channels, one in particular (49) does not have as much. Sometimes they do come in without quite as much snow. I know the CM7777 will have too much on VHF. The 7775 is a UHF only at 26 db gain on UHF, the only problem with that one is it will not pass VHF. How could I split that to pass the VHF around it (would I need the band seperator?)

I seem to think that the Winegard #AP-4700 would also be a good choice--it amplifies UHF 19db and will pass, but not amplify VHF. This would seem to be better than the 7775 though, because it has less amplification and will pass VHF. Anyone ever have any experiences with Winegard?

I remember having read in another thread that the Radio Shack preamps added more noise and hurt reception more than they helped...however I do think it is worth a try. Maybe we will try getting one and then returning it if it doesn't help.

I do like the Winegard though...

Yes. No snow = strong enough, and you don't know how much above JUST strong enough it is. 16 dB of gain could distort and give you IM distortion products that would muck up the UHF.


Two band separators would be the ticket. Use one to split apart VHF and UHF, put an amp in the UHF path, then combine them with the other separator wired backwards. They are literally called separator/joiners, and I have used them every way except sideways (and that was another long post, but about 2-way splitters). They introduce about a half dB loss in their bands, so your VHF would not suffer noticeably.

You could get whichever amp you wanted, and add the Radio Shack attenuator if needed (if you get wavy lines and such over otherwise clean UHF channels).

It might be hard to find just a UHF amp, but you can use a VHF/UHF amp with the separators, because one will keep VHF out of the amp, so that section won't have any signal in it to worry about.


You crack me up. I have been using Winegard since...well, lemme just tell you that I once had a TUBE type UHF amp. I love their GhostKiller in particular, since it has excellent front-to-back isolation, which nobody tells you is missing from other directional antennas.


It is. Even if you have to return it. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, well, it wasn't too hard to get and you have lots more info than you did.

Any amp can do what those Radio Shacks are accused of. You have to be able to measure the signal level at different channels to really know what is going on.


I first bought things other than Winegard because the Winegard were rather more expensive. Heck, I even ran across a couple of amps I have left over from when I did lots of antennas.

Thanks Ernie--

The only Radio Shack amp I can find on their website adds 30 db to each band. That would be way too much for the VHF. I think I will try the Winegard #AP-4700, which has 19 db gain on UHF and passes VHF, or the #AP-4800, which has 28 db gain, also passing VHF. This would eliminate the need for band seperators. I may try a Radio Shack just to see how it works on UHF...whether or not 30 db is too much, which would tell me if I whould get the 19 or 28 db gain. However I am almost positive that the 30 db gain will distort the three VHF channels.

[Link: radioshack.com]

Yikes! They sure have shifted! I expected two or three models of antenna amp, but also found only that one for TV. There are others for cable, XM, etc, but those are of no help.

Maybe it's time to see if there is an electronics parts supplier in your neck of the woods, and see what they have to offer. Or go to Parts Express; they sell over the internet and probably have several offerings.

Home Depot sells amps that may be comparable to what Radio Shack use to sell and they do take returns.

-Don B

Home Depot...never would have expected them to sell preamps. Thanks for the suggustion. I noticed they have an 18-db one, however it is both UHF and VHF. I would rather go with Winegard or CM because (1) they are mast mounted, which would put them before the 100' cable run that is currently being used (does not seem to have signal loss assosciated with it) but I know that is the correct spot for preamps. Even if a Home Depot one could go on the mast, it would be undesirable as an external power line would need to be run to the source. (2) The price. The Home Depot one is $79.99 and I can get a Winegard for around $50.

I think the Winegard #AP-4800 with 28 db UHF gain is the best choice. I do not think that there will be too much amplification and distortion seeing that the UHF stations all are about 75 miles away, but they still come in with snow. I also would consider the #AP-4700 with 19 db gain.

Haven't gotten one yet...just a hookup question though:

Can I have a coupler, splitter, etc on the RG6 between the preamp and power injector? Or does it need to be one continuous piece?

All splitting is done from the tv out of the preamp power supply...Also, one coax from the ant out of preamp powersupply in the house to the power supply input on the preamp at the mast.

If you use a preamp you will most likely not need a distribution amp. The way to tell ...if the signal gets snowy after splitting you will need a dristribution amp to give it a boost. No more then 12-15 db gain on the amp with low noise. No radio shack stuff!!!

for distribution amp suggest winegard HDA-100.

Next:

Here are your alternatives for preamps: You would need a uhf/vhf model. Also would like your zipcode (antennaweb.org) to see if there are any towers close by. Because of new networks, you never know where they would plop a tower in the suburbs for upn, wb, or pax. These stations are usually very high power and can cause a ton of unexpected problems with preamps and will determine your selection.

General rule:
greater than 35 miles from towers (boonies) cm7777, AP 8275
About 35 miles ap8700 (far suburban)
***less than 35 miles Winegard HDP-269 (suburban)***

Channel Master
CM7775 UHF only: 26db gain, 2 db noise
CM7777 UHF/VHF UHF: 26db gain, 2.0 db noise; VHF 23 db gain, 2.8 db noise
CM7778 UHF/VHF UHF: 23db gain, 2.2 db noise; VHF 16 db gain, 3.0 db noise

Winegard
AP4700 UHF only: 19db gain, 2.9 db noise
AP4800 UHF only: 28db gain, 2.7 db noise
AP8275 UHF/VHF UHF: 28db gain, 2.8 db noise; VHF 29 db gain, 2.9 db noise
AP8700 UHF/VHF UHF: 19db gain, 2.8 db noise; VHF 17 db gain (85,000 mv input tolerance) , 2.8 db noise
HDP-269 UHF/VHF 12db gain (high input), 3.0 db noise

purchase it here... in stock. You will receive it in a day or two.

[Link: starkelectronic.com]

Winegard HDP-269 preamp 12db gain, 3 db noise, 350,000 mv overload tolerence.

The HDP 269 has 12 Db of gain, very high overload tolerance (350,000 mv. which is 3 times more than the other high overload preamps), and 3 db noise. This can also be a better alternative where you would have used a distribution amp to improve the signal for long cable runs in your home.

Here is why...

-you are amplifying the signal at the antenna, not down the line thereby amplifying the signal closer to the source as opposed to after the signal gets a chance to get noisy at the distribution amp in the house.

-the gain is not much more than a standard in home distribution amp...12 db -vs 8 db which is typical.

-the preamp is only 3 db noise -vs.- 6db more typical of distribution amps

-is more tolerant to overload because of its design (350,000 mv vs 85000 mv typical of other high tolerant preamps).

-has an internal FM trap to attenuate FM stations that can overload the signal.

-designed to not overload your ota receiver

I am very happy with the results and wanted to share this alternative with you. Also had no need for attenuation, disconnected the distribution amp, and the pictures were very clean (on analog). I was unable to use antenna preamps in the past and this new preamp from Winegard did the trick.

Rick

I'm really not worried about any new towers going up...this actually is pretty close to the middle of nowhere we're talking about. I'm thinking of a UHF only preamp because VHF is fine. The towers are all over 50 miles away, some of the UHF ones could be close to 100. Yet they all come in with snow now. Also UHF will be necessary after the analog shutdown. As for distribution, really only one TV will be used, possibly two, so that will not be a problem.

would not suggest uhf only. A uhf only does not pass vhf well. They are intended for uhf only antennas.

If you are concerned about overload get this one.

Winegard AP8700 UHF/VHF UHF: 19db gain, 2.8 db noise; VHF 17 db gain (85,000 mv input tolerance) , 2.8 db noise

Rick

Thanks for the suggestion.

The Winegard AP-4800 is supposed to pass VHF. I guess I could also go with the band seperator thing. I like haviing a little more UHF amplification if I need it and would rather not do the VHF, if possible.

would not suggest uhf only preamp...then go with the cm7778.

If you are getting snow on uhf...you can also try separate uhf and vhf antennas or try raising your current antenna to improve uhf. The cm4228 and antennas direct 91xg work rather well. The 91xg is more directional but favors ch 40-69.

for example :

if you want all new
cm4228 for uhf on top
wade vip306 for vhf
cm7777 or cm7778 amp (has separate inputs for uhf and vhf)

or combine your antenna and use it for vhf with
cm4228 uhf on top
cm7777 or cm7778 amp which has separate input for uhf and vhf
then in 2009 remove your current antenna (for the vhf) and just keep the cm4228 for uhf only.

This is what I did at my home to improve uhf.
winegard hd8200p for vhf combined with
cm4228 for uhf (on top)
cm0549 vhf/uhf antenna combiner
winegard hdp269 preamp (20 miles from towers) could not use high gain amp.
rotor
tossed the distribution amp
signal split 5 ways with no snow.
the antennas are spaced about 2.5' apart

Thanks, but I'm not looking to buy new antennas, I know a preamp will help though. The antenna is pretty high and raising it will not help clear it of any more obstructions. I don't think that I should have too much of a problem passing the three VHF channels.