Your Universal Remote Control Center
RemoteCentral.com
Philips Pronto Classic Forum - View Post
Previous section Next section Previous page Next page Up level
Up level
The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:

Login:
Pass:
 
 

Page 1 of 2
Topic:
A few basic questions about ProntoEdit and codes
This thread has 17 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Saturday February 21, 2009 at 20:23
Healey3000
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2009
6
Hi,

I'm new to the realm of IR codes and Prontos (don't own one yet) but have been doing a fair bit of reading. I could use a few pointers at this stage because I must be doing some basic things wrong.

Fundamentally, I am attempting to determine the actual waveform that is transmitted by a remote for two pieces of equipment - a Denon AVR2802 and a Pioneer Pro-151FD. I thought that obtaining the Pronto codes would be a good way to proceed since the patterns are completely defined.

I have downloaded ProntoEdit but the codes shown are very different from what I've read. Perhaps that's because these are not learned codes; the string length is too short. Am I not looking in the right place?

Secondly, I have downloaded some ccf files off this site but they show just panels, not codes. Again, am I missing something?

Thanks very much for any help you can offer, and your patience with a newbie!

Regards,
Adnan
Post 2 made on Sunday February 22, 2009 at 09:06
johnsfine
IR Expert
Joined:
Posts:
September 2002
5,159
On February 21, 2009 at 20:23, Healey3000 said...
I thought that obtaining the Pronto codes would be a good way to proceed since the patterns are completely defined.

Do you understand Pronto Hex? In other words, do you just need the Pronto Hex strings for those signals?

I have downloaded ProntoEdit but the codes shown are very different from what I've read. Perhaps that's because these are not learned codes; the string length is too short. Am I not looking in the right place?

The library of codes included with ProntoEdit are in a different form. Since you want common signals, it is easy enough to find them in Pronto Hex elsewhere.

I am attempting to determine the actual waveform that is transmitted by a remote for two pieces of equipment - a Denon AVR2802 and a Pioneer Pro-151FD.

Both Denon and Pioneer post those code sets in a concise form (better than Pronto Hex). Maybe you are better off looking at some IRP notation description of their signal structure and applying it to the concise form of the signal documentation.

But if you really want Pronto Hex for those devices, you can easily find Pronto Hex that has been generated (from that same concise info) using my MakeHex program.

For Pioneer signals, someone at Pioneer did that conversion using MakeHex and posted the results on Pioneer's web site (He also imported that into CCF files and at least one other file format, so all the signals are posted in many different forms, including Pioneer's concise form, Pronto Hex, and CCF files).

For Denon signals, there are many threads at RC about both the process and the results of using MakeHex to convert from the form in which Denon documents IR signals to Pronto Hex.

Secondly, I have downloaded some ccf files off this site but they show just panels, not codes. Again, am I missing something?

Yes. But how can we guess whether you downloaded the wrong CCF files or whether you just don't know how to look at the Pronto Hex inside?

If you want advice regarding any files you have downloaded, provide the URLs f those files in your post. Then we can look ourselves for any critical bit of info you didn't know was relevant to the question.
Post 3 made on Sunday February 22, 2009 at 15:19
Lyndel McGee
RC Moderator
Joined:
Posts:
August 2001
12,992
To see how to view IR code data...

Search this forum for +developer +mode since the dawn of time and also download and install this utility.

[Link: remotecentral.com]
Lyndel McGee
Philips Pronto Addict/Beta Tester
OP | Post 4 made on Sunday February 22, 2009 at 15:44
Healey3000
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2009
6
Hi,

Thanks a lot for the response, which was most helpful. A few follow-on questions, if I may:


Do you understand Pronto Hex? In other words, do you just need the Pronto Hex strings for those signals?

Yes, I feel pretty comfortable with interpreting the codes. The strings will suffice.

The library of codes included with ProntoEdit are in a different form. Since you want common signals, it is easy enough to find them in Pronto Hex elsewhere.

Is there a way to interpret these? They look much shorter and perhaps simpler.

Both Denon and Pioneer post those code sets in a concise form (better than Pronto Hex). Maybe you are better off looking at some IRP notation description of their signal structure and applying it to the concise form of the signal documentation.

Thanks a ton for this; I found the Pioneer ccf codes and have begun to interpret them. Couldn't find a specific Pioneer format but I'll keep looking. For Denon, I think I've drawn a blank. The closest is the document for the AVR3806 on Denon's site but that may not be applicable.

Yes. But how can we guess whether you downloaded the wrong CCF files or whether you just don't know how to look at the Pronto Hex inside?

I managed to extract the codes. It was simply a case of digging deeper but eventually, they showed up.

I'm not specifically set on using Pronto codes. Whatever is the easiest method to recreate the waveforms will work. If you have specific suggestions for this, they would be most welcome.

Again, many thanks.

Regards,
Adnan
Post 5 made on Sunday February 22, 2009 at 16:17
johnsfine
IR Expert
Joined:
Posts:
September 2002
5,159
On February 22, 2009 at 15:44, Healey3000 said...
Is there a way to interpret these? They look much shorter and perhaps simpler.

If you posted a few samples, I could be sure. For now, I'm guessing which short simple form you mean:

It gives you a setup code number and a button number for look up in a database that was licensed from the company that designed OneForAll remotes. So it isn't telling you anything directly about the signal. If you happen to have a OneForAll remote, for basic functions it tells you how to make the same signal with your OneForAll remote. But the button numbering is different, so for many functions it doesn't even tell you how to get the same signal with a OneForAll remote.

Thanks a ton for this; I found the Pioneer ccf codes and have begun to interpret them. Couldn't find a specific Pioneer format but I'll keep looking.

I haven't had great luck with links to Pioneer's web pages pasted into forum posts. You might need to navigate to it yourself, but here's a try:

[Link: pioneerelectronics.com]

I took the "Pro-151FD" from your post and pasted it into the search box on Pioneer's site and selected "PRO-151FD IR & Hex Codes" from the results, which brings up a document called "2008 ELITE TV IR CODES".

That document has columns labeled "Category", "Function", "Command" and "Hex Code".

"Function" is the name of the function.
"Command" is the IR signal in Pioneer's own concise format for specifying IR signals.
"Hex Code" is the Pronto Hex.

I've seen many Pioneer documents with their concise form and without Pronto Hex. But maybe they aren't documenting as much that way now, since they realized how few people understand their format.

I'm not specifically set on using Pronto codes. Whatever is the easiest method to recreate the waveforms will work. If you have specific suggestions for this, they would be most welcome.

If you have and understand Pronto Hex, it probably will be easiest for you.

I think the IRP notations I use inside MakeHex and various other programs, documents and posts (or a similar IRP notation used by Barry Gordon in some of his programs) are better ways to represent IR signals. But by the time you find and understand the info posted on IRP notation, you would probably already be done with whatever you're trying to do with signals of just two devices.
Post 6 made on Sunday February 22, 2009 at 17:44
Lyndel McGee
RC Moderator
Joined:
Posts:
August 2001
12,992
The classic Pronto FAQ and NG FAQ have a list of what the first 4 digits mean.

0000, 0100, 5000, 5001, 9000, 900A etc...

There are also documents in the Classic Pronto Files section authored by Barry Gordon and Eigeny (Eugene) Eulanov. These are very indepth and should also help you along.
Lyndel McGee
Philips Pronto Addict/Beta Tester
OP | Post 7 made on Monday February 23, 2009 at 00:29
Healey3000
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2009
6
Thanks Johnsfine and Lyndel.

I can call the Pioneer portion a complete success at this point. The ccf's from the Pioneer website were perfect. Since they gave the codes directly in hex, it made my job much easier.

What I now need is an understanding of the Denon Kaseikyo format. I have compared a scan I took of a Denon string (off an oscilloscope) to one from a ccf on this site and it matches in terms of code but not timing. I plan on calling Denon tomorrow to see if they have the 2802's codes but they may not have the interpreter. If that were available, it would complete my research before I try and write code. I will do some more searching on this forum as I'm sure it's been discussed.

Johnsfine, I see from the JP1 board that you are familiar with trying to simulate button presses on the PS3 BD remote. Any information you can offer on that subject would also be much appreciated.

I want to thank you once again for the invaluable help you've provided.

Regards,
Adnan

Last edited by Healey3000 on February 23, 2009 00:39.
Post 8 made on Monday February 23, 2009 at 01:13
Lyndel McGee
RC Moderator
Joined:
Posts:
August 2001
12,992
The Kaseikyo format has been discussed in this or the NG forum for sure (search both for 4 years) and John has an .irp file for Makehex.
Lyndel McGee
Philips Pronto Addict/Beta Tester
Post 9 made on Monday February 23, 2009 at 09:54
johnsfine
IR Expert
Joined:
Posts:
September 2002
5,159
On February 23, 2009 at 00:29, Healey3000 said...
I have compared a scan I took of a Denon string (off an oscilloscope) to one from a ccf on this site and it matches in terms of code but not timing.

How much did it mismatch in timing?
A URL of the downloaded file and some timing data from your oscilloscope results would let me make much more specific comments.

Most devices don't care much about moderate timing differences.
1) Plus or minus 10% on modulation frequency usually doesn't matter.
2) Plus or minus 10% on the overall time scale usually doesn't matter.
3) The beginning of the first On period is usually missed by the receiving device, so the receiving device typically must ignore the length of that first pulse so wild differences in that lenth usually don't matter.
4) The ratio of On and Off parts of Zero and One bits typically doesn't matter. The receiver might measure from the beginning of one Off period to the beginning of the next Off period and completely ignore where in between the On period starts.
5) The time between frames usually can vary by a lot more than the 10% that doesn't matter for other timing and still have no effect.

Johnsfine, I see from the JP1 board that you are familiar with trying to simulate button presses on the PS3 BD remote. Any information you can offer on that subject would also be much appreciated.

Sorry, I don't recall anything about it. I certainly never did any of that myself, but I'm sure I looked at some signals someone posted somewhere and used those to help someone else. If you have specific questions, I probably can help. (A URL to some relevant earlier post I made could make that easier).
Post 10 made on Monday February 23, 2009 at 18:25
Jasonvp
Select Member
Joined:
Posts:
July 2008
2,404
On February 23, 2009 at 00:29, Healey3000 said...
What I now need is an understanding of the Denon Kaseikyo format. I have compared a scan I took of a Denon string (off an oscilloscope) to one from a ccf on this site and it matches in terms of code but not timing. I plan on calling Denon tomorrow to see if they have the 2802's codes but they may not have the interpreter. If that were available, it would complete my research before I try and write code. I will do some more searching on this forum as I'm sure it's been discussed.

I have not programmed a Pronto remote for Denon older models but I am pretty sure the 2802 does not use Denon Kaseikyo format but uses Sharp format.I don`t think they started using Kaseikyo until the 2807.
I could be wrong but I think CCf File you are looking at is Sharp format.

You can download their IR Code Sheets from their site in the Support Section.They do not list the 2802 IR Codes but they have the 2803 which should be the same.

2803 IR Codes
[Link: usa.denon.com]

Denon Support Archives
[Link: usa.denon.com]

To generate the IR Codes to Pronto Hex you can use Denon Pronto Hex Generator it also uses Hex2CCF and Makehex.
Read the Readme Files.

[Link: remotecentral.com]

Last edited by Jasonvp on February 23, 2009 18:32.
Post 11 made on Monday February 23, 2009 at 19:10
johnsfine
IR Expert
Joined:
Posts:
September 2002
5,159
On February 23, 2009 at 18:25, Jasonvp said...
I am pretty sure the 2802 does not use Denon Kaseikyo format but uses Sharp format.

I don't recall even what I might have known at some point about which Denon models use which Protocol. So earlier in this thread I made no guess about it. I would trust Jason on that.

I could be wrong but I think CCf File you are looking at is Sharp format.

If the original remote is Denon's version of Sharp protocol, and the CCF is Denon's version of Sharp protocol, that doesn't help explain why the oscilloscope results don't match the CCF. But maybe that is just imperfect timing as I described in my previous post.

I suggest using DecodeCCF.exe with DecodeIR.dll on any CCF you are examining. That would tell you which protocol the signals are (and lots more useful data):
[Link: hifi-remote.com]
[Link: hifi-remote.com]

In my programs (DecodeIr.dll and MakeHex, etc.) Denon's version of Sharp protocol is called "Denon" while Denon's version of Kaseikyo protocol is called "Denon-K".
OP | Post 12 made on Tuesday February 24, 2009 at 13:22
Healey3000
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2009
6
On February 23, 2009 at 18:25, Jasonvp said...
I have not programmed a Pronto remote for Denon older models but I am pretty sure the 2802 does not use Denon Kaseikyo format but uses Sharp format.I don`t think they started using Kaseikyo until the 2807.
I could be wrong but I think CCf File you are looking at is Sharp format.

Hi Jason,

The 2802 does appear to use Kaseikyo codes. I grabbed scans on an oscilloscope of a dozen or so keys and every one of them shows a 48-bit pattern. They are arranged as three groups of 16, with longish wait states between them.

I then pulled down a couple of ccf files for the 2802 off the files section and aaronmac's formats match mine so far (I've only looked at three or four keys). Interestingly enough, Joel's file has some strange ones in there that match no format at all (that I can tell).

Perhaps Denon receivers of this vintage are able to recognize both Kaseikyo and Sharp formats? The remote that came with my receiver is what I'm basing my scans off.

Pretty interesting stuff!

Thanks,
Adnan
Post 13 made on Tuesday February 24, 2009 at 14:23
johnsfine
IR Expert
Joined:
Posts:
September 2002
5,159
On February 24, 2009 at 13:22, Healey3000 said...
They are arranged as three groups of 16, with longish wait states between them.

That is absolutely NOT Kaseikyo format.

I then pulled down a couple of ccf files for the 2802 off the files section and aaronmac's formats match mine so far (I've only looked at three or four keys). Interestingly enough, Joel's file has some strange ones in there that match no format at all (that I can tell).

I'll try later to figure out which CCF's you mean, download them and use DecodeCCF to verify, but I'm confident I'll find Denon's version of Sharp protocol and the strange ones are probably bad learns (surprisingly many signals in posted CCF files are garbage that would never work).
OP | Post 14 made on Tuesday February 24, 2009 at 18:56
Healey3000
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2009
6
Hi Johnsfine,

Here's the link to the file I mentioned: [Link: remotecentral.com]

I'd like to have you look at one of my Excel files for say, one button, if you wouldn't mind. Can I post files to this board or should I send you an email?

What I see in the scans (and in the abovementioned ccf) is that the first group of 16 bits is identical to the third group of 16, with the middle group being different.

Your interpretation would be most helpful.

Thanks,
Adnan
Post 15 made on Tuesday February 24, 2009 at 19:15
johnsfine
IR Expert
Joined:
Posts:
September 2002
5,159
You can email the excel file if you like.

What do you want to know about it?

Sharp protocol alternates two groups of 16 bits, which is what you are seeing.

Do you understand that a pronto hex string can have a one time part and a repeat part? I haven't checked that CCF yet, but I expect that three groups of 16 would mean the startup is a little different from the repeat part, so you see the first group of 16 as "one time" followed by the repeating the second and first. After a long repeat, the end doesn't matter.
Page 1 of 2


Jump to


Protected Feature Before you can reply to a message...
You must first register for a Remote Central user account - it's fast and free! Or, if you already have an account, please login now.

Please read the following: Unsolicited commercial advertisements are absolutely not permitted on this forum. Other private buy & sell messages should be posted to our Marketplace. For information on how to advertise your service or product click here. Remote Central reserves the right to remove or modify any post that is deemed inappropriate.

Hosting Services by ipHouse