Wonderful, Cico!

Thank you for the time and thought you put into your comments. It's clear that there are lots of personal opinions about what a remote control should be. I like yours. I like mine. I'd LOVE to find a remote control that kept everyone happy. The real hope, though, is that enough honest opinions and ideas are presented that a consensus can be formed, and a remote that targets that consensus will be designed.

I have and love a Pronto. I have and love a Cinema7. I think they are both great products, but for different reasons. I'd have never bought a Pronto if I'd discovered a cinema7 with about 3 times the learning memory and twice the remap/magic/macro memory. The Cinema7 is soooooo close to being perfect for me. Here's my latest Christmas wish...

- They should just keep the external design, and update the memory.
- Let it have double the devices by SHIFTing the device keys.
- Put a Pronto-like serial jack on the side, and let us upload/download/save configurations.
- make all advanced codes and new device codes available on the WWW as they come out and downloadable via the web directly into the remote.
- Make the top case transparent... and
- have the software let us print out prepunched key label templates that can slip over the buttons but be read thru the top cover.
- Call it a Cinema PLUS, and sell it for $39.99.

I'd buy two.

There may be a simple solution to the labeling concern. Check out the "Brother" label makers at Staples. You can use a variety of tape, clear or color, and sizes. Then change the font and print your own personalized labels!

cico,

What a post. I don't have time right now to comment on everything you said. But I will make time to say that as a woman, I am DEEPLY offended by your "Good tip to reach that female buyer market here!" comment. What kind of sexist crap is that?

EMT

> What a post.
> I don't have time right now to comment on everything you said. But I
> will make time to say that as a woman, I am DEEPLY offended by your
> "Good tip to reach that female buyer market here!" comment. What kind
> of sexist crap is that? EMT

Thank you for giving me a good laugh EMT. If you are that easily
offended, I suggest you think twice before venturing outside into the
rest of the world. As a militant feminist, I am somewhat offended by
your characterization of my efforts to help women achieve the same
technological bliss experienced by the more primitive of our species.
As a pseudo-marketeer, I am somewhat interested in your comments,
purely for statistical purposes, I assure you. As a healthy,
well-balanced person with a sense of humour and a certain joie de
vivre, I am somewhat amused.

I didn't write any kind of "sexist crap". It is such a commonly held
notion that remote control units are "toys for boys", that this fact
works itself into many popular comedy routines. Why don't you try
taking a survey to find out the ratio of women to men on this website
if you don't believe me, unless you are just interested in denying
facts that conflict with your judgmentalism? Look at the posts
themselves too, and you will see plenty featuring men talking about
how their wives are not nearly as "into" remote controls as they are,
to put it mildly.

As the marketing agent for a company that produces hand-held remotes,
I would have to look at little details like facts, such as the FACT
that it is largely men, not women that hold a keen interest in URC's,
and if I wanted to maximize my profit margins, I might want to take
this into account and find a way to make the devices more appealing to
the female market, in whatever way possible. Since it is also an
irrefutable FACT that it is largely women, not men, that show a
greater interest in home aesthetics, making the remotes more
attractive might create more interest in this side of the buying
public and generate more sales for my company. We're talking marketing
here, NOT politics. Besides which, some men do have an interest in
aesthetics as well, as is exemplified in some of the posts here, and
it certainly wouldn't hurt to have more variety in my line even if
female market sales do not show any significant change because of it.
If you are offended by being targeted in such ways by marketeers, then
be thankful you don't any more about the extent that this kind of
thing goes on today, your protestations notwithstanding.

You may wish to consider it all stereotypes, but that doesn't make it
that all stereotypes are false. If you would like to consider yourself
classless and free from all the stereotypes, fine, but that is not
relevant as that doesn't change anything. If you really gave a crap
about any of this stuff "EMT", you'd be out there campaigning against
Mattel, Disney and other manufacturer's that continue to peddle
products that reinforce classic male/female stereotypes. Not wasting
your time in senseless pursuits and starting battles you can't win
with people you know not a whit about on a silly "remote control
forum" (hey, no offense!). Get out there and make a DIFFERENCE, for
God's sake! Me and future generations of women are counting on you.

I would break remotes into two categories: simple and complex. The Cinema 7 would be simple and the Pronto complex. (You might also call them cheap and expensive:-)

For a simple remote, the Cinema 7 learning is pretty damned good. I would use it as a template and add the following:

I would like to see macros be limited to a single device, not global. If I want them global, I can program them again and again:-)

I'd like to see the numerical buttons be buttons, not giant numbers.

I'd like the cable/DBS button back where it was on the 7200, as a large central button.

I'd like a smaller delay between commands on macros. I've noticed the 7800 is significantly longer than the 7200.

The documentation should mention all the features. The docs I got didn't tell you that you could assign a learn to any button. They also didn't mention the advanced codes at all.

For DISH receivers, the PIP buttons should map to guide-screen up and down, so I could save 5 minutes programming it. For me this is a little carping and I admit the feature is very poorly implemented on the original remote. But being able to go down a screenful in the guide is probably the single most used item.

Most of all tho. Oneforall should publish the advanced codes on its web site. It is ridiculous to have to order them via mail order. It is even worse that OFA NEVER actually responds to said requests.

David,

You seem to be the true guru here (at least when ofa cinema7 is concerned). Do you have any plan to put up a "cinema7 inside" manual to summarize all the great things you've discovered? That would be a great help.

I appreciate that someone has put up a FAQ, but I think it does not cover all the stuff you've posted.

snehne,

Thanks for the compliment. I have no plans to put up a "cinema7 inside" manual. The Cinema7 FAQ page gets better every day, with most of the information I've discovered about the Cinema remotes posted there. I'd also like to let it be known that although I seem guruish, the majority of information I know about the Cinema remotes came simply from searching the web, asking questions around here, and playing with the darn things. I've done nothing that anyone else with web access and a cinema7 couldn't have done.

Hmmm... my perfect universal remote shouldn't have made me have to think so hard. Back to the drawing boards, ONE4ALL.

Dave ;-)

As a point of interest, I learned that the folks at One For All took great interest in this thread. Keep it up!

Nice to have you back, Daniel! Does "great interest" translate into any new products you've seen coming?

Another problem I've been having lately is "losing" them. I'm in a new house, with things not all unpacked. There have been at least 20 times so far I've wished I could yell "Cinema7 Where Are YOU?!", and have the remote respond "I'm over here, under this chair" or wherever it was.

In other words, a finder feature. The feature helps you locate the remote when it's lost. "Clap Clap", anyone?

Dave ;-)

david,

>>"The Cinema7 FAQ page gets better every day"
What is the urll for this?

Regards

Reapur,

Try this,

[Link: ampersand.hypermart.net]

Zhe Zhang

What would be the perfect universal remote?
Well, start with a Cinema 7, then increase the
memory about 10 fold. Memory's dirt cheap these
days, so there's no excuse for the small ammount
of memory in these things. There ought to be
enough learning memory to learn every function
for at least two devices, and there should be
enough key mover/macro memory to redefine every
key for all 7 devices. There's currently barely
enough for one, and that doesn't even include
shifted keys.

Now, here's the biggie: You probably won't like
this idea at all (I'm speaking to OFA and the
Hudson Access Group here), but I want a remote
where you can SEPARATELY select the IR protocol
and the device identifier bits. Admittedly, this
might confuse users, but I've even got a way to
prevent that. Most of the good features of the
Cinema 7 are undocumented anyway, so just make a
combined selection of protocol and device
identifier bits, AS YOU HAVE NOW, but have a code
(of the 9XX type) that let's you change the
device identifier bits for the current device. I
know at least one person this would have helped
tremendously, because it would have allowed him
total control of a device for which he has none
at the moment.

Now, I know what you're thinking. You're
thinking that I don't really understand the
problem. You're thinking that even if it worked,
the default key mappings would have been all
wrong for his device. Well, that's simply not
the case, because I happen to know that the
default key mappings would have worked perfectly.
Furthermore, even if the key mappings were all
wrong, since only the more clever people are
going to be using this code, I don't think
they'll have a problem redefining every key with
advanced codes, thanks to the aforementioned
increase in memory.

On a much smaller note, make the glow in the dark
buttons glow longer. I know this is possible, as
I've got a Sanyo TV remote that has some glow in
the gark buttons that hold their glow for an
astoundingly long time. I suspect it has to do
with phosphor density within the silicone.

-=Ingenious=-

As far as I've seen so far, the Cinema 7 is as close to the perfect remote currently available. I've had this thing for only two weeks now, but I think it's great. I performs every function (that I need on my remote for everyday use), for every piece of a/v gear I have. At first I was concerned. I figured a learning remote was the best way to control all the functions I needed, but 28 new functions (as advertised on the packaging) seemed way to few. But, fortuntely, I discovered this website and with a combination of macro's, advanced codes and learning, I've been able to reprogram far more than 28 buttons. That's not to say more memory wouldn't make it better. Like they say in the computer industry, "You can never have too much memory."

Anyway, what would be the "PERFECT" remote? Well starting with the Cinema 7, I'd make the following change to perfect it.

I'd love it if the device keys could not only change the device set for the remote, but also send out the proper ir to change the input of my receiver to the corresponding device. You know, just like the oem remotes that come with the receivers. If this isn't possible, I'd at least like to see more of those L1,2,3 . . . buttons. Given there arrangment, I've set macros on them so that they perform the receiver input switching function, but unfortunately, I have more inputs than "L" buttons.

I personally would add chapter skip ("|<<" and ">>|") buttons, but I guess the current arrangement (ch up & down on DVD's) works. Of course adding more specific function buttons complicates the whole thing since everybody, I'm sure, has unique buttons they would like to add.

I also liked other peoples idea to add customizable button labels and being able to plug it into a computer serial port and programing it that way.

As far as appearance, I do agree that the radio shack version looks better and backlighting sounds nice. I just didn't feel like returning the cinema 7, hunting for a shack that carried the specific remote, and then reprogram the whole thing. I think the cinema 7 looks fine. The layout is a little ugly. One person said in a post that it looked like something from fisher price. Actually, the "fisher price" look appeals to me. Makes it more novel. I like the number shaped buttons. But the overall layout looks messy. This is the same reason I think that the AV pro 8 is ugly. I don't think it looks attractive at all. Just bigger, heavier and less functional.

I like the way the remote feels in my hand. A magazine reviewer, reviewing the same remote without the "Cinema 7" label but oemed for a particular piece of a/v equipment complained about the vcr functions being placed on the bottom and not being easy to press with one hand, but I figure, unless you, extend the remote to add a blank space, some buttons are going to be on the bottom. It's unavoidable. Ironically, he complained the buttons were too small.

My previous universal remote was made by Carver. I thought it would be the perfect solution because it had so many buttons and the whole thing was completely learning. No preprogrammed codes, every button had to be learned. I figured this way, I could have the remote work exactly the way I want. But every button on the thing was exactly the same shape and size and they were all arranged uniformly in perfect rows. After a while I got sick of having to look at the remote and hunting for buttons everytime I needed to use it. I found myself wanting an OFA just because of it's "wild" button layout.

Well I hope I haven't bored anyone with my rambling.

Incase your wondering, here is a list of the a/v equipment I use my Cinema 7 to control.

Magnavox 32" TV w/ PIP (and a bunch of smart buttons I don't use).
Sony STR-DE 435 receiver.
Sony SDP-E800 DD processor (no preprogramed codes or EFC's for this unit at all that I could find).
Technics 5 disc CD changer.
Samsung Hifi VCR.
Toshiba 2107 DVD player.

> Nice to have you back, Daniel! Does "great > interest" translate into any
> new products you've seen coming?
> Another problem I've been having lately is > "losing" them. I'm in a new
> house, with things not all unpacked. There have > been at least 20 times
> so far I've wished I could yell "Cinema7 Where > Are YOU?!", and have the
> remote respond "I'm over here, under this chair" > or wherever it was.
> In other words, a finder feature. The feature > helps you locate the
> remote when it's lost. "Clap Clap", anyone?
> Dave ;-)

You mean "beep beep". I have a finder feature on
my Cinema 7. Just so happens OFA make a finder
that works pretty well (ie. it will make the
remote beep under several cushions), which even
matches the aesthetics of the Cinema 7 (that is,
it's BLACK). They're pretty cheap devices too. That is, if you can "find" them...

I'll have to say first that perfection ain't gonna happen, be here are my ideas that might at least pave the way in that direction...

Tactile versus Video buttons:
I must admit that I prefer physical buttons that I can identify by touch in the dark.
Until touchscreens can raise their surfaces where the pixels are black,
I'll stay away from them. As far as custom labeling goes, we can perhaps look at how
my old Radio Shack learning remote did this. (I'll follow up later with the part
number for that remote... It's dead now, but I still have it.) It had a clear plastic
cover that would protect a template of button descriptions. The template and cover had
holes to allow the buttons to project through. The only problem I had was having to
make my own templates on the computer by hand. Downloadable templates on the web in
various graphic formats would make customization easier. A program that generates these
templates would be even better, but impractical. How about a web page that takes form
input and returns a custom template jpeg file..?

Memory:
More memory is a must. If there was 1000 units of memory instead of 180, every button
on every device could be customized. A similar increase of learning memory is also a must.

Universal Presets and Upgradability:
There are many ways to do this... A serial port and custom software can let a user
download new device codes and layouts as well as save customized sets to computer backups.
This would be much like what the Pronto does, but without the graphical layouts. For the
more basic users, perhaps a small plug-in module inside the battery compartment that can
be removed and replaced with a newer presets ROM. These could be purchased from OFA
retailers or ordered directly. No waiting for your remote to be sent back. Just chuck
the old plug-in and start programing your year-2021 QRR. (Quantum Resonance Recorder)

Standardization:
Aim your OFA Cinema-32 at your AV rack and hit the ASSIMILATE button... The remote "talks"
to each of your components, learning their settings and functions directly from the
horses mouth, as it were. This idea, of course, requires the cooperation of the entire
consumer electronics industry... It's not going to happen overnight, if ever. Until such
a time, the use of "advanced" codes should continue.

Physical Layout:
I like most of what the designers of the exterior of the Cinema 7 did. You can tell that
it was optimized for right-handed use, though without TOO much inconvenience to
left-handers and ambi-remoters. The STOP/PLAY block is too under-emphasized in my opinion,
being small of button and close to the palm. Those are the worst placed buttons for
left-handed use. A remote should restrain it's dimensions to the limits of an average
thumb's reach. And the buttons should be large enough and/or spaced far enough apart so
that only on is pushed at a time. AND the buttons should press down only -- The "one" key
on the Cinema 7 is notorious for just bending over and not actually registering a press.
Perhaps make each of the numbers flatter but on a raised circular dias. This gives the
same tactile reading of the digit, but gives each button a more stable base to press.
The different shapes and zig-zag layout of the "sleep" column of buttons are both excelent
examples of layout. I agree with previous posters that a more consolidated directional
pad would improve the Cinema line. Most DVD players come with what amounts to a small
joystick for directional control. With more and more elaborate "on-screen" menu systems,
such an input device becomes additionally important.

More on Advanced Codes:
How about an auto-search for advanced codes? You can search for Device Codes
with a two-button cycle, so there should be a similar method for Key Codes. Perhaps
something like "(DEV) MAGIC** 982 [KEY] MAGIC [KEY] MAGIC [KEY] MAGIC..." and then
"MAGIC**" when you find something that works. Add a 983 command to display the advanced
code, too. If that function is a keeper, move it to where you want it, and start searching
for the next code. It may not be as fast and neat as the ASSIMILATE button, but it would
be better than typing in each number in sequence by hand.

Just a few ideas,
Non