Despite the sophmoric sarcasm of the subject remark (made by another member who I am not trying to embarrass and therefore won't name), maybe he had a point.

I would like to get feedback on how and why the Harmony 650 may be inferior.  Especially from anyone who has serious experience with the 650 and then moved on to something they would argue is better.

Here's what I would say in the 650's defence:
1. Does everything we need flawlessly. 

2. It supports 5 devices; we use 4.

3. My family loves it and finds it extremely easy to use.

4. Cost only $49.99.  At that cost, I'll probably go buy another.

5. Does not use LiPo batteries which can fail with explosion/fire.  We do not want LiPo's being charged 7/24 in our house.  I may yet use NiMH's to save on the cost of primary AA's, but battery life has been good so far.

I respect you for witholding my name as I made the comment, and wanted to start off by stating this. There is no need as I am not embarrassed to voice my opinion on Harmony remotes. Yes, I am a CI and use pro lines of remotes, but have in the past been subject to Harmony remotes on a daily basis with a company I worked for in the past. The first issue was simply reliability. The failure rate was astonishing. Damn near 60-70% of these remotes failed in one way or another within their first year. Lucky for the customers they were under warranty, but from a CI standpoint, it was not billable to go out and replace, at least not with the company I worked with. Problem 2 was the software. Their site was down probably half the time I was on site (this was several years ago, this may have changed). Once in the software, simply things would not auto populate, like the A,B, and C buttons for a cable box. It would put A, but not B and C. Furthermore, it would put stuff out of order if you added it and you had to play around to try and get things in the order you want. If I was working with a piece of equipment that did not come with a remote and it was not in their Database, I could not simply input Hex codes, I had to call support, email the hex code, then after they input I could then upload to my remote to test. If this code didn't work, I would have to call back if I was not still on the phone. Just a pain all around.

I will also mention that some of my customers at that time did not even have their cable installed at our time of installation and we did not have internet service at the site. This is before mobile hotspots were around, so maybe it wouldn't be as much of an issue today. I also realized the model I thought you were talking about was the 659, which is several years old. That remote was shaped like a peanut and it would squirt out of your hands as it was very slippery and kind of odd shaped. I do not have experience with the 650, so my apologies for confusing the two. In all I am not a fan of any of the Harmony remotes based on two factors, the failure rate I experienced, and the software that I find to be a huge PITA for a software package that should in fact make it easier. I am also not a fan of the power tracking these remotes utilize being that they do not use discrete power commands, but rather power toggles. I hope you don't think to negatively for my comment in the other thread, but wanted to elaborate so you understand where I am coming from .

The Harmony remotes will happily use the recommended discrete method if the discrete commands are available for that device. Not all devices support discrete commands. Blame the device mfg in their infinite wisdom.

They CAN use the discrete commands, but by default they do not. The majority of devices will have discrete commands. Not all do of course, and I am sure the thinking behind using power toggles within the power tracking macros is to save from having to create software that is smart enough to know when to use discrete, and when to use toggles. With pro remotes, you do not use a wizard so you are the one that is deciding what codes to use. With a wizard, it has to choose. This is just my guess though as I haven't really researched it at all. And yes, some manufacturers do not see the importance of discrete commands. Luckily, most TV and receiver mfg's do provide discrete commands, and other components often have work arounds, like pressing play on a dvd player that will turn the player on.

It uses the toggle method only when the discrete commands are not available. The database will be configured by default to use the discrete method specially for those device brands know to support the discrete method. A new entry in the database is usually initiated by a user. Many devices that support discrete commands may not have them on the original remote. So the user may not know that the device supports discrete commands. So initially, the entry may be missing the discrete commands, but the database police will add the missing commands for brands know to support discrete commands or when coaxed but another user.

I challenge whether this is correct. I had a couple customers recently that had Harmony remotes that asked if we could program them. These systems had a Panasonic TV and Onkyo receiver in one, and a Samsung TV and Yamaha receiver in the other. Neither used any discrete commands within their macros. No the TV's do not have the discrete commands on their remotes, but I believe the receivers do. Either way, none of them automatically programmed the macros with discrete commands by default.

It's neither correct nor incorrect. It takes time to find if a particular device supports discrete commands. It's usually a knowledgeable customer that finds out and ask support to add the commands. This is particularly true for outside mainstream devices/brands. My experience as been the opposite of yours probably because my devices were all mainstream.

Onkyo/Integra, Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, Samsung, LG are all mainstream equipment with discrete codes available from the manufacturer and available in URC's IR database. All of these brands used toggle commands when programmed into a Harmony. Yamaha receivers, as an example, have over 2000 codes available with discrete power commands included right on down to discreet internet services commands. I am not sure what the criteria is for when the software will program with discrete commands. All I know is that I have never had a single Harmony program with discrete commands. I have probably programmed 50-75 of them, and every single one used toggle commands, so I am not sure honestly.

Based on your more recent experience (mine is over 8 year old), it sounds like Harmony has dropped the ball.

Perhaps. I didn't work with any Harmony's that are older that a 659, so that is dating back to probably 2006 maybe? If they did utilize discrete commands at one point and have now gone away from that, than that is a shame. For the DIYer, they are probably the best option, but using power toggles where discretes are available makes little sense.

I have used the 659 for many, many years now, and yes I've had to replace it once. But I love it because it has so many hard buttons that can be programmed. I have it currently set it up to use a TV, PVR, CD, DVD, pre-amp, AR Receiver, Squeezebox and outdoor amp. I have programmed 4 independent volume controls: AR receiver, pre-amp and two sets of outdoor speakers. It also handles SACD and DVD-A. All tolled, I have control over 14 speakers throught the house, indoors and out.

I love it so much that I've even purchased a backup for that inevitable day that it breaks - cost me $30.

My experience with the four Harmony remotes I've owned is not at all like goldenzrule's. I've never had one fail. The software database has the discrete power on and power off codes for both my Onkyo and Denon receivers and uses them by default in the activities.

I agree the software is far from perfect, but I've been able to set up all of my activities to be easy for my wife and visitors to use. Not too bad considering I paid less than a hundred for each of them. I could have paid the big bucks for a pro remote, but these Harmony remotes seem to do everything I ask, albeit through a harder-to-use software wizard.