I was following a discussion on an unrelated site about the American Civil War. They were discussing the differing viewpoints still held by many today, depending upon where they lived. "It was all about slavery." "No, it was all about State's rights." "The Confederate flag today is a sign of oppression." "No, it's a sign of rebellion." You get the idea.

Someone made the comment that "history is written by the winners," and someone else asked "what are English children taught about the American Revolution?"

Well, there don't appear to be any members on that forum who can answer. I thought it was an interesting question, though! Since I know we have members here from England, I thought I'd ask.

Regards,

Bruce

This message was edited by Bruce Burson on 02/09/04 10:52.

Yes being an unashamed Englishman (regardless of the close proximity to Wales), I obviously went to school here. Whether I was educated is somewhat open to question.

My understanding of the American civil war (bearing in mind I was taught more Russian history than American) is one of it being primarly slavery driven - an understanding my son was also taught. The wife, on the other hand (a few years my junior), hardly scratched the surface of American history - but that's all down to government policy (which I have no intention of boring you with).

My understanding is that the American Revolution is another name for the war of independence between British colonies wanting independence with France stirring it later on.

France were annoyed because Britain had got too big for its boots and tried to rule the world kicking France out of India and North America.

The cost of beating France was very high and the debt was massive and the nasty king was greedy so king Georgie boy tried screwing the colonists with stupid high taxes and treated the colonists very badly.

This made them fight for independence.

Most people in the UK confuse the war of independence with the American civil war
Which I think was a North /South conflict.
With the south having a mainly agriculture based economy (with over 4 million black slaves) and the North had a manufacturing and financial based economy. The south wanted to carry on with slavery.
In 1860 Abraham Lincoln became president he wanted the ending of slavery and in 1861 war started.
It wasn’t as easy as the north thought it would be and the war lasted to 1865

My opinion of the confederate flag is via images from the media.
Often films show redneck racists driving cars with confederate flags.
But I also seem to remember that design on the dukes of hazard TV show.
I also read that Mississippians have voted overwhelmingly to keep a controversial Confederate emblem on the state flag - even though many black people see it as a symbol of racism and slavery. (I personally think if the reference to the flag is not rebellion but slavery and that it offends people then it should not be allowed. The fact that it was voted for in such numbers is a thing of concern)

Please note all of the above I have taught myself and is vastly simplified (so I may be right off course)
We are taught at High school about The Vikings, The Romans, The Ancient Egyptians, The battle of Hastings, World War one and two.
History IS written by the winners look at the Romans as a prime example.
They destroyed many artifacts that would have given us more information about the peoples they destroyed.
The very fact that we are not taught about US history must mean we are sore losers!

"Two nations divided by a common language," how true.

The Amercan Revolution is the USA term for the war of independence from England. The Civil War is the USA term for their internal North/South conflict. (How can a war be "civil"? But I digress...)

The Americans on the other forum (including me) know the "history as written by the victors" of how "we threw off the yoke of oppression" and established a "land of freedom and equality for all" etc. etc. etc. during the Revolution against George III.

What we don't know is how this conflict is described in English schools.

Thanks for your comments, Wolf. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about US history, and I just learned something from your initial comments. I remember lots about how "unfair England was to us," but I don't recall anything about why George III raised the tariffs, nor about the earlier conflicts England was involved in against France and the impacts that had on the English economy.

So, you're saying the American war of independence wasn't even addressed in school?

What's the popular perception (if they think about it at all... :) The rebel colonies were justified in their rebellions, or were just a bunch of ungrateful barbarians, or somewhere in between?

This message was edited by Bruce Burson on 02/09/04 10:55.

Here in Canada, next door to the US, my education in the 1950's did not cover the Civil War, other than mention the "underground railroad" which was a name given for a route that provided escape to Canada from slavery.

There was an occasional mention of the Revolution, mostly about the war of 1812 where American forces attacked Canada and were repelled after burning Toronto. The Whitehouse was burned in retaliation by British forces. And how Laura Secord (now the name of a chocolate candy manufacturer) warned the Canadians that the Americans were on their way. Also our history covered the "Empire Loyalists" who left the US to come to Canada for safety.

and owned by a US chocolate manufacturer

This message was edited by Anthony on 02/09/04 13:09.

The British Empire became so big through not giving two hoots about any one including its own colonies.

We have plenty of history of English kings with high taxes and persecuting its own subjects never mind ones in a far off land.

My personal opinion is that the average Joe public believes that past kings and governments have been cruel and mean and unfair but recently a very one sided view seems to be purveyed by Hollywood .almost every evil baddy has a English accent .
Mel Gibson has it in for the English...we deserve some stick but after Braveheart I wanted to wear a kilt and kill some English. After the Patriot I punched everyone who spoke with a posh accent in the face.
U571 altered history and there are quite a few examples of this .This is a prime example of how history is written by the winners.

I don’t think of the American colonies as savage barbarians just people like the general public in Britain but far enough away from the iron fist and boot of the British government to form an effective and just opposition. feel a bit of pity for the average British Citizen. We had to wait far longer until we were not ruled by such tyrants.

Ah, "The Boston Tea Party", an act of rebellion to highlight the swingeing levels of taxation being levied upon the colonists". Well, not really.

Whilst it is indeed true the crown insisted on a contribution to aid in the defence of the colonies, tea imports from England were, at the time, still cheaper than those being supplied by local merchants. They, wanting a somewhat larger slice of the cake, decided upon a course of direct action – dump the English taxed tea into the harbour.

Not, I hasten to add, something I learnt at school. It comes from a recent BBC documentary, re-evaluating the causes, events and effects of the revolution – if indeed one considers it to be a revolution. Interestingly Richard Holmes believes it to be more of a civil war that latterly developed into a world war, which only goes to highlight how large a part interpretation plays. Interesting as well is the analogy between it and Vietnam, which brings to mind another historical incident.

Much has been made of the Japanese peacekeeping force recently sent to Iraq, but who here is aware of the policing role they played in Indochina at the end of the Second World War? Japanese forces under British command, I hasten to add.


Brit bashing, I do believe it is called, which is why I found wry amusement in that in "Enemy At The Gates" the evil villain was played by an American (Ed Harris), whereas all the other major parts were played by British actors.

Once again, however, history has been somewhat embellished, but then the film industry has never been one to allow the facts get in the way of a good story. For a more honest account of the sheer horror that was Stalingrad may I suggest one reads Stalingrad by Antony Beevor (ISBN 0-14-024985-0).

Djy what are your opinions on the confederate flag?

Thanks for the input so far! I'm learning a lot.

"Save your Dixie Cups, the South shall rise again."

Other than it being representitive of the "rebel" states during the civil war, not a lot - in much the same way as that ridiculous EU flag means nothing to me.

How does the European flag relate to us? It says nothing about me or the place my father and his fathers fought for.
What a waste of money and time and a sad seventys pallette of colour.

Cool, I love history stuff...Well I am a southerner In the good ole State of Alabama..First on the Civil War..It is a general consensus that it all started over slavery..

1. It originally was started over States Rights..Each state wanting to be able to make and keep it's own laws without a governing Federal policie..

2. Slavery became a good political issue for Lincoln at the time..Historically it is said he always hated slavery and wanted to abolish it as a young man..However I have read some research that is was used as a political campaign to stand on..that helped him to get elected..

3. General Robert E. Lee is to have been reported to have freed his slaves at the start of the Civil War.The North tried to commission him as he was already a decorated colonel..But he refused due in part to his loyalty to his home state of Virginia..

4. The hot topic after the war began became slavery..


On the confederate flag, first let me state that I am half American Native..
The black population of the United States is often seen by many minorities here to no longer be a minority..They complain incessantly about racist issues . Which our country has been plagued with. They have fought for equal treatment for ( they say over 200 years)..Yet no one listens too or will you hear, complaints from the Indians, Asians ,or hispanics..I guess in a way it is almost like they have become whiny about it..The blacks in this country have "EQUAL RIGHTS" today..the civil war has been over for 150 years..The civil rights movement has been over for 30 years..Yet the poorest county on record in the entire United States is an Indian Reservation in South Dakota..As a southener I have always felt that the confederate symbols show us not to forget. That we fought a war in our own country with our brothers..many people died..period..black and white..Get over it..The removal of the south and all it's symbols is asking us to forget our history..The south is rich with the influence of a constant mixed culture..It has turned us into a more polite part of our country..where people tend to have more manners than in the North..Yes there is still some frustration here..Although it has grown to the point where whites now feel discriminated against..It is so eloquently called reverse discrimination..When it is just plain discrimination.It is often asked of students that they not display on any part of their clothing here any confederate symbols..While at the same time blacks may be allowed to wear Malcom X, or Gang colors, on there clothing..Enough is enough..there are bigots everywhere..North,South, and all points in between..We do not have the market cornered..


Rick

Strangly enuff, this leter to thuh editer ran jest tuhday in ar lokal paper.


Stars & Bars - Battle Flag


Flag of the Confederacy