smokinghot when I opened that page the link isn't active in either Opera or IE so I thought it was dead I didn't think to C&P SORRY!

The blog and the list are two different entities. Where did the blog came up with his number is beyond me and he substaniates nothing. The web site with the list (Matthew's) is very extensive but I found no tally of deaths due to religion. If nothing else thanks for the link to the second site - some amazing stuff on it.

I'm was talking just this century and his list (Matthew's) encompasses from the beginning of written history lets compare apples to apples. Until this century there wasn't any national group that wasn't theistic so by his definition that was a religious war. That's a span of 5900 years 1900 - 4000 BC approximately. I know this isn't accurate because the population of the world has not only grow but not linear. But that works out to be 1,371,186 every 100 years and we have 80,000,00 (I used the low number to get to this) by atheistic regimes (Hitler ?) in the 20th century alone.

As far as my source different places on the internet but they do jive with his (Matthew's).

As far as saying religion was evil you made the comparison "The positives of religious belief have come no where close to the negatives." so we are arguing semantics here.

We can't ever say if those atrocities would or wouldn't have happened is a priest were in control. What we do know is that they were done by people that had no religion (Biblical). While davidcasemore brought up those quotes from Hitler he neglected to check out what the Bible says about this "They claim to know God, but they deny him by what they do." Titus 1:16 So that excludes Hitler.

The Crusades were over a span of 200 years from 1095 - 1295 of there about. The Khmer Rouge killed more than that in 3 years.

The 12K was for the Inqusition this number is all over the place but and the span of years is huge 1478-1834. That number is low closer to 50K and this includes all the Inqusiton but that's over 360 years.

But again I'm sorry for the mix up on the link!

Marc

I for one don't dislike the concept of God.

If he's real...I can't wait to meet him. Oh but I can't because I'm living a life of sin.

There is no baggage with science. "Here's the best answer we've got, and when new info comes to light, if it does, that answer will change".

No fuss, no muss... Open to whatever, without judgement, without hypocritical religious values.

I have no issue with saying I'm wrong. Odds are the current scientific theory of life is a little off track. However IMHO it's the best one going. Best part is, scientists are trying to prove themselves either wrong or right. They don't care either way...they just want the answer regardless. Whereas the good book needs to be right or believers will have to ignore yet another fact to keep the money train rolling.

My bad... I knew that it needed to be pasted. Should have mentioned it.


I assumed (not meaning to make an ass of u and me) that he took the conflicts/wars that were religiously based, and did the math. So you could discount or include based on your opinion. Whether he used the universally accepted religious conflicts...I don't know. So for sake of arguement...lets give it a +/- of 200mil.


The detailed link uses italics to separate conflicts pre 20th century. If you would like to run through them all and double check his findings...have at er. :) You could say the last 20yrs if it suits your arguement, but lets just stick to the records we have at our disposal. If that means having to include details before the 20th century, does it make it any less viable an arguement...? I'm pretty sure I didn't give a time line. Besides with the advent of global warfare, something like the crusades simply couldn't happen this day and age.


You certainly could say that. Many positive things have been done by religious groups. I happen to put great value on a human life, so it would take a great deal to even compensate for one.


Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. The "words of god" are interpreted differently by many, depending on the belief system, or one of it's sub groups. Whether or not you happen to agree on Hitler's take on the bible, has no bearing on his motovations. Religion is a belief of a higher power guiding us. That might not be the same higher power as yours, and may have different teachings as such, but it's still belief in something greater, and should be taken as equally as your own.


Jabbing someone with a spear or cutting them down with a sword takes time.


hey... nice to be civil with you.

Jarrett

smokinghot we all living in sin in that I am not perfect. I sin. That's not what Tom and I are about we don't have to be. That's not what God is about. He's not hell fire and brime stone. Since none of are us perfect there are people that inject their own agenda in with what the Bible says. The attrocities that have been done through the ages in Jesus' name are all examples of an outside agenda. You mention the money train I was watching TV with my son he was maybe six one Saturday morning and we were flipping channels and one of those types happened to be on an my son - you have to remember he was only about six - asked why is he always asking for money! This passage applies to them also "They claim to know God, but they deny him by what they do." Titus 1:16. The hypocrasy is from the people not what the Bible says in it's entirety.

What are you doing up so late?

Again Sorry!

I was working in a home last week. The homeowners were Christians. The lady of the house was chatting with her mother in law... They were talking about this one woman they recently met in the new neighborhood... The homeowner's comment was: "I guess she is a recent Christian, but she still seem O.K., but she hasn't been a Christian for very long"!!!

I was pretty disgusted by the judgemental comment. jmo

midnight shift...

whoo hoo

That's the stuff that pisses me off Stanley. Imagine if she were a baptist...ooohhh

good example

Why is that judgemental? Any more than anyone of us saying that someone new at what we do and say that they haven't been doing this very long. Of course and can't account for her tone!

Sorry Marc, but there's a difference with gauging someone's ability with experience, and commenting on whether or not they're "ok" because of the length of time they have shared the same religion as you. What does time served have to do with a belief system...?

If anything...I'd say the Christian newb was the more deserving of praise. She made her commitment while having an adulthood level of comprehension of what she was getting into. Rather than the person would simply followed their parents belief system, because it was the only thing they have known.

my .02

Now for the important stuff. The largest Waffle House franchisee has gone under! If that was here that would kick the unemployement rate up 10% by it self. The next worse would be if Huddle House's largest franchisee did the same! There must be 4 pages of Waffle House in the phone book.

I'm going to try and dig in on this just a bit.

There is the Bible and there is religion.

The Bible in its purest form has some merit. it has some fascinating stuff in it besides. Okay, it's got so many pages, there is going to be plenty to pick apart. There's plenty to get mad about if you want to. Like, "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die" - who wants to hang with that? :^)

Take the ten commandments. Not killing, stealing, lying, etc - we could do without those "sins", yeh? Would we be in far less trouble if none of those "character flaws" existed? (Rhetorical question, no?)

So in purest form if a man happened to follow the ten commandments without adding his own agenda, he'd be a decent guy. Some of us may work for people who try to live by the "golden rule" and it's not such a bad thing. I'd rather have a bunch of them and never meet the one who wants to withhold the last 10 per cent of his bill.

Okay, so that's just a thumbnail by which I would advertise that the Bible has enough guidelines for ordinary decent living that a non-agenda motivated person who follows it could be decent.

NEXT TOPIC: RELIGION. Religion muddies the waters, not just a little bit, but considerably, perhaps to the point where they can never be cleaned up. Man starts with a reasonable framework for honest living but excuses certain behavior and creates his own set of rules. Hello, all sorts of trouble. "Sin" never stays still - it only increases, so the "religious" man adds more rules and excuses more wrong behavior. Religion will never get my vote for being a good thing.

Hitler had his own "religion". He was no Christian, period. You can call yourself a Christian, but unless you live by the teachings of Christ, you are not a Christian. You can call yourself a custom installer, but if you hack your way thru a job and leave 30 per cent of it undone and the client is suing you, you are not a custom installer, you are a hack. The world is full of people who say they are something when they are not. Hitler was not a Christian by Christ's or the Bible's standards. So I don't care what you or anyone says, his actions betray him as a liar.

You could write a small book about that but his actions say it all.

The amount of time has no difference to their salvation - none. I was speaking more to the experience/knowledge that's all. Like Tom said the Bible is a BIG book. I've read it 3 times front to back and as I grow I see things that I didn't the first time times. Also I'll see things that pertain to my experiences/events that are happening right now they really didn't have any bearing before. That the incredible thing is that it talks to you if you listen. As far as anything else there isn't any.

I'll buy that Tom. However, the bible is second only to the cross for religious icons IMO. Separating the two (bible vs religion) certainly poses a good angle. I don't think it matters if Hitler was or wasn't a Christian though. It's about religion and what man has done in the name of it. You could say that he was a pagan, and the example would still be valid.

I think, (or believe..pick your poison) that man can be everything the bible's teachings wants you to be, without the trappings of religion. Religion is an excuse in wait for bad intentions.

Religion is exactly that. The evil that has been done in by religion is the hypocrasy, the wars all the bad you see. Religion isn't done out of love it's done for an agenda/control.

Bingo... we agree on something...!

This is why I have no problem with faith, but can't stand religion.

Back to the Stan's example of the women talking...: If it were about faith, all they would have done is praise the newb. Their religious state of mind only accepted her because of her choice, and even then they still had a critical eye based simply on she wasn't always a Christian.

Religious intolerence... it's really my only gripe with the whole God concept.