...S&G or did you mean S&M?

A quote from The Insitute for Creation Research: "God has designed the atmosphere to maintain a certain temperature.."

A source for some of the info on that website : "The Christian & the Greenhouse Effect"...

Wow, Stanley, I'm impressed.

"consensus - agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a group as a whole"

I guess we don't have that. And I'm supposing you won't go for "vast preponderance of evidence" either.

HEATED DEBATE we definitely have.

Look, I say that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you're looking at a duck. If you won't agree until you've seen the duck's driver's license, OK.

You persist in avoiding citing your source. You and Wesley operate in the same way, you know; avoiding the questions you don't care to answer. I did, you can read, respond to yours. Will you respond to mine? I'll repeat; show me where that "fact" (your quotes) comes from.

Oh c'mon Owen. A panel of the world's top climate experts (Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Beck, Inghram, Medved, Malkin, Hewitt, Snow and Gallagher), have all concluded that global warming is a farce.

I’m sure everyone will agree that reducing air pollution would be a very good thing, especially in the short term for urban areas around the world. Not everyone agrees on the gravity of pollution in the long term. Even within the environmentalist community there is disagreement. The recent UN report differs quite a bit from Al Gore’s apocalyptic predictions in “Inconvenient Truth.”

The real question I think pertains to how do you effect real change across the globe without creating very coercive government restrictions that would cause economic hardship. Regulating powerplant emissions and SuperFund sites hasn’t been easy for the US government. Try regulating the energy usage by every citizen. Can you imagine the government apparatus necessary to encourage compliance in the use of cars, light bulbs, HVAC, kitchen appliances, etc? And what about other countries, especially those in the developing world that are emitting huge quantities of pollution themselves? Whatever face they put on for the Kyoto accord, I doubt you’ll see China or Russia abandon their pollution-producing infrastructure in a timely fashion. Environmentalism is a luxury for rich western countries. The rest of the world is still trying to emerge from shacks and shanties and get through their own Industrial Revolutions.

The fact is that change will be influenced largely by the market with SOME government intervention. That may come in the form of tax incentives or limited regulation of uses of energy (i.e. CAFE standards on cars). When people can buy energy-saving (money-saving) products that perform as well as their older, energy-hungry products, they will. And pollution will be reduced. It should be pointed out that the US has already cut their own pollution output in half over the past 30 years. This, as the US economy has outgrown other western countries year after year. More on that stat here:

[Link: usinfo.state.gov]

Yeah, well I ripped it off from someplace....!

I have seen these 2 things presented in numerous articles, even liberal ones. I didn't think this part of it was even in question. Do you have evidence to refute it? I have also read that cow flatulence (that's farts to you) out weigh human emissions, I don't know if this is true, but there are scientists who do. Read CrisMc's post, it is the best so far in my opinion. In the mean time you can keep wringing your hands and buying carbon credits and I'll keep doing nothing except eating all those polluting cattle. Enjoy your day if you can.

You know I was a die hard kool aid drinking global warming guy...

...But some of you guys are so anti global warming -- maybe I should keep an open mind and do a little more research... There are a lot of different theories swirling around out there...

One of them is "The Milankovitch Theory" whisch is an astronomical theory based upon, the cyclical irregularity of earth's rotation --- whereas every fewe hundred thousand years or so, the earths axis to the sun changes which causes major climate changes i.e. major forms of ice sheets etc.. Then, the earth's orbit or axis can change in time, causing the eath's climate to warm up considerably...

Reminds me of a cartoon I saw in New Yorker magazine years ago... These two guys were in hell, with flames all around them, and the devil was prodding them with a pitchfork --- and one guy says to the other, Yeah, but at least it's dry heat!

Anyway, I think we're all a pretty good group of guys here, and don't think it's worth guys getting all pissed off at one another... Hell, who knows... Maybe Alan is controlling the earths' climate via a Crestron panel?

It's always fun to see things "heat up" here... but hell we're all basically trying to figure out this climate change stuff the best we can... A lot of good ideas theories and debate going on here as usual!!! :>)

Yeah, that is the scary part... Some of us that have been enjoying the good life might be a little more acdcepting in terms of life-style adjustments, if you were an impovershed country, that suddenly has a booming economy and are jumping on the mass consumerism bandwagon, driving big-assed gas guzzlers and all --- how can you convince those people that --- hey! we have a little problem here guys!!!



Yep... and worldwide, by reducing the use of flourocarbons, the Ozone hole has just about gone away --- (Or so they say)... So, that gives me some hope that our kids and grandkids might be a little less apathetic about the environmental problems, and maybe come up with some actions and effect some positive change.

One scary statistic is that if the Ice Caps continue melting at a fast clip (like they are doing now)... the oceans could rise by 20 to 21 feet --- 3/4's of the worlds' populace live in the coastal regions -- and those folks would be looking for higher ground!

But heck, maybe this warming climate ISN't all do to man's spewing of carbon... maybe some of it is due to a natural cycle that comes along every few thousand years or so... It would still be nice to have cleaner air and water.

If anything else, this might help reduce the number of kids who are developing Asthma & Allergies... My kid has them, and his doctor says that Asthma & Allergies are now, like massively epidemic -- due to our air & water quality.

I found this through a link on one of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracies web sites, some very prominent scientists are calling it huge overreaction and Al Gore is full of S?!%. It is a business, plain and simple, follow the money.

http://www.greatglobalwarmingswindle.co.uk/

I have read this too and it is well documented, though for those of you who need to see my sources, I cannot tell you. That is because I did not take it so seriously as to go and find a pen to write it down and file it under 'on-line discussion evidence'.

I believe you’ll find some links within this thread directing you to the YouTube version of the programme.

I have actually seen it (still have it on my dvr) and do believe it makes a compelling argument against the belief of man made global warming. However, in the interest of balance reporting here is an article, from our esteemed Royal Society, giving an alternate viewpoint.

As you can see the Royal Society is very much in line with the “man made” theory; with this footnote This document was compiled with the help of the Royal Society Climate Change Advisory Group and other leading experts appearing to give it some serious academic weight. What it doesn’t mention, however, (though I must confess my search has not been exhaustive) is how many and who these people actually are. Perhaps, like the IPCC, there are a number of non-scientific bureaucrats, one cannot tell. If memory serves though, I do believe they number in the region of 200-300, which, though reasonable, pales into insignificance when compared to those who do not necessarily agree.

Some while back the Royal Society published an article in the (UK) Sunday Telegraph postulating their understanding of (man made) global warming. One reader took exception to this and had the temerity to write a letter (published the following week) expressing so. This in turn was followed, a week later, by a letter from the President of the Royal Society, claiming that his view ran contrary to the 250, or so august members of the RSCCAG and therefore carried no weight. Not to be out done, the correspondent replied something along these lines, "If the President of the Royal Society wishes to play a numbers game, I can furnish list of 16,000 scientists telling him he is wrong". Make of that what you will.


Perhaps I can help.

Re. the anecdote above, I’m afraid I cannot cite sources; links to the letters and article no longer exist. The following, however, still do, and do make for some interesting reading.

Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, has become something of a thorn in the side of those postulating man made global warming. Here is some of his work.

• The sun is warmer now than for the past 11,400 years.


• Apocalypse cancelled. The pdf supplement to the above article.


• Wrong problem, wrong solution.


• The Stern Report. As mentioned in the above article. Be warned though, it is no light weight read.


• Readers responses to the Monckton articles. Another large pdf.


• At stake is nothing less than the survival of human civilization. Al Gore’s reply to the Monckton articles.


• Gore Gored. Monckton’s reply to Al Gore. (pdf)


• Monckton – An open letter to Senators Snowe and Rockefeller. (pdf)


• Monckton’s reply to the IPCC (pdf).


• Monckton challenges Gore.

These things take time. And for those that do not believe that "Global Warming" or Climate Change or what ever the cool catch word is now.....sooner or later people will get the hint. My history book tells me that people back in the day thought the earth was flat!

All you can do is educate, make small changes over a steady ammount of time, and live. Take Gas for an example......yeah we need different types of fuel......yeah we need SUV's that get 80MPG. I agree. The problem is...... and don't say it isn't a problem cause the Engine Mech that works for the local Ford dealer would say it is a HUGE problem to him. We can not just in a few years phase out all the MOGAS cars and trucks. To many people would be out of work, whole economys would crash....bla bla bla. BUT........ if we slowly start making changes make new jobs for the new type stuff..... then Jon and the local Ford dealership still has his job, still feeds his family..... and the world gets saved.

People do NOT change until.....

1. They Know Enough to Change
2. Hurt Enough to Change

As far as political parties go......

we need a Republicrat.

There are stuff that both parties have that I am totally agrement with. But then.......there is some stuff that........well I like your points 1-5 but 6-10 suck more than I like points 1-5 so I vote for the guy that sucks the least!

BUT.......I VOTE so that gives me the right to gripe. People that do not vote do not have the right to gripe! But that is just my take in the issue. Good reading this thread...... pretty cool ideas and thoughts.

And seeing how others have made Christian pot shots in prior posts of this thread..........
If the people would have read Isa in the Bible they would have known that the world was round and NOT flat. ".......God sits above the circle of the earth..."