guns dont kill people. people kill people

Ammunition does the killing actually. Otherwise. the gun is just a bunch of metal and crap.

So, I've been reading this thread off and on for far too long and have avoided getting pulled into this but here goes. I like to think of myself as an individual who can think for himself. Certain "facts" are obvious to me though problem solving can be a bit complex regardless of the truths. I will state that as an African American (though no one on this board NEEDS to no this - nor should it matter) my viewpoints may be a bit skewed due to our history in his country but from my eyes these are truths.

To the argument regarding the banning of guns/gun control:

1.) I don't believe guns should be banned.

2.) Anyone who doesn't believe that some form of more stringent gun control will help reduce gun violence is OBVIOUSLY high on their own blow! If there is less access to guns less gun crimes wil be committed (NYC - already proved that). Though crime itself will probably only drop slightly the devastating effect gun crimes have in the communities affected will drop significantly.

3.) If gun control is not to be federalized then cities should be allowed to write their own guns laws as most of the violent crime committed with guns happens in these areas.

4.) There is a direct link between education (or lack therof) - gun violence. There is a direct link between education (or lack therof) - property taxes. As long as school children, parents and teachers are not getting equal access and/or pay respectively we will continue to have these types of problems in urban areas. As long as the wealthy and almost wealthy continue to leave the urban areas or gentrify them because they don't want to be around the undesirable elements we will always have this problem. America cannot afford to ingore the poor.

5.) How many of you "hunters" out there use assault rifles for sport? Most of the guns used in commiting gun crimes were specifically created for the purpose of killing people NOT hunting animals. As humans are the only mammal that hunt for sport.......

6.) Some Americans are uniquley afraid. It's a part of American culture - America sells fear. Be afraid of the injuns. Be afraid of the black people they'll make your property values go down (hint property values only go down because you leave!), same for the italians, the irish, the polish, the jews, the mexicans (they bring more crime) , the haitians (they bring AIDS). America is the most frightened, most segregated de-segregated country - it's pathetic..........

the marijuana tax act of 1937 - mexicans and blacks were smoking the "evil weed" and then raping white women. When in reality DuPont invented polyester and hemp woud interfere with his ability to make money selling this new synthetic fibre - so out comes the lobbying. Oh yeah, the guy who brought the suit was dating DuPonts sister - hmmm?

7.) Time to get flamed: The likelihood of someone breaking into your home or car and robbing you is actually very, very slim - even in urban areas but fear is what drives the sale of security systems. The latest adt (or brinks?) commercial where the guy kicks in the front door. I'm not saying it won't or doesn't happen but it is unlikely that most of us will ever experience a break-in. I have. Some of us won't sell extended warranties but damn we'll sell a security system for 39.95 a month for "peace of mind". extended warranties = the same thing - Safety and Security

America - Stop the Excuses

PNAC - "Project for A New American Century" "Right Wing think tank"

"Rebuilding America's Defenses - Strategy, Forces, and Resources For a New Century" you may be intrigued by the fact that this document was prepared well before 9/11 and the majority of heavyweights in the Bush cabinet either took place in or endorsed the study. Before I get off track, I must state that all administrations have an agenda but none that I'm aware of has so blatantly stated what they were going to do before they did it regardless of what the consequences were/are.


The general theme of Rebuilding America's Defenses.....is that in order for America to remain the premier global power, it needs to ensure that it is the dominant nuclear power, control and own outer space and cyberspace, begin to strike pre-emptively, and indirectly implied the need for a department of homeland defense. What I also belive is telling is the specific mention of "Weapons of Mass Destruction" 7 times in the document long before the term began to be used in everyday language. Of course these people advise the president so he would use their terminology after coming to power.

The simple known truth is that the Bush administration had planned to invade Iraq well before September 11th. In fact documents were in circulation as early as 1996 when Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. were still upset that Bush senior didn't find it prudent (pun originally un-intended but intended now:-D) to topple Saddam earlier and now they would have their chance. What they needed was September 11th - which is also why there are so many conspiracy theories surrounding this event.

Quote from the document - chapter 5 "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalysing event - like a new Pearl Harbor". What this quote is referring to is the beginning of transforming the American military into what they believe is better equipped to handle warfare in the 21st Century. Also "building upon this unprecedented opportunity" to support an American grand strategy for the rest of the world by protecting and enhancing our position as the sole super power. If we secure the middle east, and space, and cyber space then we'll have very little in the way of opposition from "At no time in history has the international security order been as conducive to American interests and ideals. The challenge for the coming century is to preserve and enhace this "American peace""


I'm not writing this to agree or disagree but to state that honesty is not what we have received from this administration. We haven't really received it from many, but this has been the worst byfar. I agree with many of the principals spelled out by this document but the way to acheive is still up in the air. It's kind of like saying, Q is opening up a custom shop up the street from me and that is a threat to my business. Since's Q-Fi is a threat o my business I will undermine and destroy his new building to preserve my preeminence in this market. I find it difficult to not look at the way we approach the rest of the world and consider how I deal with my neighbors - I don't recall any pre-emptive strikes in the new testament?


Global Warming:
whether or not humans are contributing doesn't diminish the fact he it is our responsiblity to be good stewards of our land. affirmative action exists for the same reason as the recent debate over corporate governance. Many companies and individuals have shown that they cannot and will not be just and fair on their own and need the law to step in. How many companies would/do dump their toxic waste into our waterways without a second thought or at least until they get caught. Even if global warming didn't/doesn't exist there are sooo many other reasons we should take care of our habitat. From a biblical perspective isn't it our responsibility to to take care of the animals and the planet as well as ourselves? How many species have we killed off due to our selfish acts. How much have we polluted and left it up to the next generation to repair. How can we / Y do we condemn other countries for doing exactly what we once did, before offering our assistance?

Many of you don't care what other countries think of us and that logic is flawed. If we truly led by example many of the problems we have now with international perception, terrorism etc. wouldn't exist or at least would be less prevalent.

Do any of you care if your competitiors think highly of you?

Sorry for the rant. I knew I shouldn't have gotten involved in this one.

The poster formerly known as core_techx

BTW for you sportscar fans. I'm going to France next month for the 24 Hours (1st time). Anyone else making the trip?

What do you guys/gals recommend for an antenna in a condo with no access to the roof for an antenna for fm? and will it increase global warming and/or my p...s I mean carbon footprint.

"[The CIA possesses] solid reporting of senior-level contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda going back a decade." -- CIA Director George Tenet in a written statement released Oct. 7, 2002 and echoed in that evening's speech by President Bush.

"We've learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases ... Alliance with terrorists could allow the Iraqi regime to attack America without leaving any fingerprints." -- President Bush, Oct. 7. 2002

There are some 47 or 48 states that allow concealed carry. There are a few towns where every house is required to have a gun. If there was higher crime in those area's don't you think the press and the anti-gun groups would be shouting that fact from the rooftops? Don't you find it curious that you see little coverage of those area's crime? To stand QQQ's argument on its head would there be less crime if all store owners were required to wear a pistol at all times their store was open? What are the crime stats from before to after concealed carry went into effect in states that recently passed concealed carry?

Wisconsin where I live is one of the 2 states that do not have concealed carry.
BTW, I have NEVER owned a firearm.


Some would argue that stating your intentions and then doing what you said your were going to IS being honest. Perhaps you would prefer the previous administration's policy of threatening, threatening and then doing little or nothing. I could be argued that THAT policy set the stage for 9/11.


I believe the Clinton administration had plans to invade Iraq, and even sent troops over at one point but chickened out. With his history of attacking others and all the rest of Saddam's activities like ignoring 17 UN resolutions, kicking out the inspectors and trying to kill the first President Bush it wasn't a question of if but when we would take him out.

When I was growing up in the 60's the Cuyahoga river in Cleveland was so polluted it actually CAUGHT FIRE and burned for like a month. See [Link: time.com] They didn't know how to put it out. Lake Erie was proclaimed DEAD and nothing could live in it. The air was so polluted that visibility on clear days was causing aircraft to have trouble landing. We were loosing our forests at an alarming rate.
Today people canoe and kayak in the Cuyahoga, lake Erie is a great sport fishing lake, the air is much cleaner and we have more forested land then when Columbus landed.I am not saying the job is done, but it is 90% better than when I was a kid.

Bonus question: Who signed the EPA into law?


Leading by example means that if other countries are wrong you go ahead and do what you feel you must. In the runup to the Iraq invasion France, Germany and Russia were the main holdouts against invasion. Later it was found that all 3 of those countries were benefiting greatly from Saddam staying in power. Remeber Oil for Food? Other countries have agenda's of their own.

Sorry, I couldn't resist editing that last part. ;>)

Since you seem adamant about making this point I will agree that this seems likely, however, there is no way to be sure. And keep in mind that you would definitely be taking away the ability of law abiding citizens to defend themselves.



I suppose now you are referring to WMD as nuclear weapons and not the serin gas and other devices that Iraq clearly did have and never disposed of. We went into Iraq for numerous reasons which I refuse to repeat, the least of which was the existence of nukes. I showed your posts to a friend of mine who has completed numerous missions in Iraq and Afghanistan and most recently just returned from Kuwait. He was very amused by your vacuous opinions and suggested you should run for Miss America. You know, "I just want world peace." There's nothing you can do about it now, Q, so you should just shut up and quit trying to make yourself out to be some great humanitarian.


Of coarse, what we should really do is take everything sharp, toxic, or dangerous away from citizens and wrap them in bubble wrap so nothing bad could ever happen to anybody ever.

Not accourding to the commanders on the ground we are not failing. Maybe not as fast as todays microwave generation wants but we are not failing.


That is a tough one. Here is why..... we want answers right NOW. But at the same time we want civil liberties as well. Some of the things people are willing to give up in the name of safety. Really worries me. When people get scared they will darn near sell there soul to satan if it will make them feel safe.

Don't get me wrong hunt them down and kill them. No problem.... heck give me a good gun and some ammo I will do it. But we are on some crazy times here. People are willing to trade some of the very things that make this nation great all in the name of security.

We are AV guys lets use that as an example. Client wants FULL home automation, Crestron everything, Fuji plasmas every place, 16 zones of audio and video......the list goes on. Client wants to spend 10K on the whole system. No he demands to only spend 10K, And it has to be done in 1 day, and done on the day he wants.... Sunday.

Cliff note version:

1. The Price for doing Iraq right is going to COST less than doing it wrong.

2. It is not going to happen fast, and yes more lives are going to be lost.
(The Brookings Institute did a survey and if we pulled out now they estimate that 750,000 civilians would be killed. Note: 800,000 civilians were killed in 1994 in Rwanda)

3. Do not be willing to trade your rights for alledged "peace of mind and safety"
(Freedom is not free, it does COST and it is paid for by the blood of patriots. And I know I am going to get branded for selling out the GOP but the Patriot Act is the biggest attack on the consitution I have ever seen.)

4. Tell your congress man or woman that you want people to actually be held accountable for their OWN actions.

(how come people are not filling law suits against beer? I mean it is Millers fault that I got drunk and killed those kids with my car right?)

5. Enforce the laws that we currently have. (This will take care of a LOT of issues.)

6. With #5 in place we can stop the banter of Outlawing guns and killing the 2nd ammendment. Well #4 and #5 are kind of one and the same. (One of the founding fathers said that, "The quickest way to enslave the people is to disarm the people.")

7. Goes with #4 we as Americans start holding our peers accountable for their actions. If we start giving people a ration of crap for doing things that are jacked up that is going to go a long way.

Summary: We as a nation need to stop being a bunch of wusses, and step up and be men and women of integrity, and character. Nothing in life is free, and nothing worth having comes cheap, and or easy. Do what is right REGARDLESS of the price or COST.

Oh wait i'm getting confused now... ???

I wouldn't disagree with that if it were true. The problem I have is that the administration used fear as a tactic to gather support for an illegal military action based on a supposed, possible connection between Al Quaeda and Saddam. The same Rebuilding America's Defenses document clearly considered North Korea to be the biggest threat but that's not who we targeted. Practically everything out of George's mouth came out of this document (pre-emptive strikes, homeland defense, WMD), which is proof that the "War on Terror" was manufactured/planned prior to his being elected. Therfore, our reasons for going to "war" were/are bogus. I would have preferred if Bush plainly stated the real reasons going into Iraq. Let the American public decide based on truths, not lies.



True. But don't use the fear generated by 9/11 as an excuse and imply that Americans who don't agree as unpatriotic or un-American.



I agree we are getting better but again, it took laws and prosecution to make it happen. Not genuine concern.

Nixon

Leading by example also means showing the world that there is true equal opportunity here. It's very difficult to have respect when you tell someone to clean up their yard when yours is filthy. It also difficult when most Americans are not aware of their own history. Most don't know that we have overthrown 14 governments. We put people like Noriega in power and when he decided to do what he felt was right for his own people and not agree with the U.S......We put Saddam in power and the same thing. School of the Americas where we trained militants and dictators to help overthrow governments to do our bidding and when those dictators change there minds.......? Hawaii?

The really difficult part about freedom not being free is our counry has done some really filthy, nasty things in the name of speading democracy & liberty, which is why so many outside of the U.S. who are aware of those things have such a poor view of us. Many small places and "little people" have paid a heavy price for our American Lifestyle. It's a very complex issue and depending on who you ask, do the ends justify the means? Case in point - the U.S. will issue travel warnings about U.S. citizens traveling to Kingston, Jamaica due to the violent crime. The violent crime is a direct result of the U.S. through the CIA trying to destabilize the Jamaican government during the 70's when the U.S. was afraid that Jamaica was becoming more socialist and lining up with Fidel. We supplied assault rifles which were only U.S. military issue at the time and ammunition to try change the political situation. The gun culture in Jamica was created by the U.S. but we have done nothing to help clean it up. Is it political? Is it racial? Is it both? As they say, "The Devil is in the Details" which is soemthing the U.S. media is very short on - right or left.

I thought it was WMD? They threw around Al Quaeda a few times, but pretty sure we invaded over "WMD"


Need to read that article again. I must have missed something.


Oh come on.....

Do you go 55 cause you are an honest american that the law says I have to limit my speed to 55. OR...... do you go 55 cause if you get caught you will get a ticket. If you get a ticket it is going to cost you lots of $$????

There for you drive 55 because you fear the reprocusions.



True....but with great power and wealth comes great responsibility. Just cause we have issues.... and we do. Does not give us the right to give the world the finger and say piss off we have to fix our own stuff then...... maybe we will help you.

It also difficult when most Americans

OK hasn't that been done for thousands of years? Rome did it a bunch, Greece..... go on down the list. What is the alternative? Who is the biggest threat? America was all about giving a bunch of stingers to a certain person...... as long as he was shooting down migs. Now we want him dead. OK..... things change..... this threat is not here any more....... and now you are the biggest threat. Is that not a true statment?


I would not say that is totally true. PM Blair said that you can judge a country by how many people want to get into that country against those that want to leave. I might be paraphrasing a tad...... But that is waht I got out of it. I would say that a lot of people are jealous of America. We are the most prosperous nation on the globe. We have freedom that is NOT matched in ANY other country on the Globe... Plus a lot of people like it or not......owe US. Top it all off by we are number 1.

I sound like a proud American don't I......... That is how we all sound. We are very proud to be Americans. We hold our heads up, we all come accross confident....... people that do not have what we have...... and then see us all proud and confident..... pisses them off.

Overseas one time in Greece. A local was running is suck about America sucks, and American that...... the bartender told him to shut up..... and reminded him that 2 weeks earlier he was in the same bar bragging about how he had put in an application for a visa to move to the states. He shut up....

And lets not forget that to get this freedom a whole bunch of people had to do some really NASTY things that were not accepted at the time. Example......

Revolutionary War. It was not allowed to target officers. It was not permitted in rules of war. Yet we used to set up snipers just to shoot the British officers.


OK good move...... didn't we learn that friends of Fidel tried to put NUKES in our back yard a few years back. Ok so we learned some things. Had several choices to alter the political area in our back door we chose for what ever reason to give out guns and ammo.


So what you are saying is that all the guns on the street were given to them by us? And therefore we are responsible to go in there and get them all back? I have seen a boat load of AK, and other nations weapons in that area. Do not see half as many American weapons in the photos?

How so "illegal"? The president has the power use the military as commander in chief against foreign threats to our country. But he went further and got congress to authorize the Iraq invasion. Just like Clinton did, except Clinton was all bluster. In your previous post you seem to be complaining that Bush "blatantly" told the nation what he was going to do AND THEN WENT AND DID IT. I remember the Democrats reaction being "We gave our permission but we didn't think he was acually gonna do what he said he was gonna do". Too used to Clinton maybe?

Well after getting unneeded permission from congress, the administration then went and got permission from the UN. So how was it illegal? Did we need the entire nation to vote in a referendum, which needed to unanamous? Or did we need to have the whole world vote in a referendum?

As far as your supposed connection between Al-qaeda and Iraq, this is what the 9/11 commission had to say;
"Officials with the Sept. 11 commission yesterday tried to soften the impact of the staff's finding, noting that the panel, formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, agrees with the administration on key points. "Were there contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq? Yes,"


What were the "real" reasons? To get the oil? Revenge for the attack on George senior?

What were the "lies". WMD, which every intel service in the world believed he had at the time?


I do not think you are "unpatriotic". Misguided maybe, but you probably think the same about me.


And when will we get to a point that you are satisfied? Would you agree to use cost per human life as a basis to determine whether or not to make new environmental law?


A Republican???


I think the snapper answered that one.

How long have you had your subscription to Mother Jones? A lot of what you are writing sounds similar to some of the wacko views held by extremists on the othewr side.

Well... look at Canada... I'm sure there are a lot of gun owners up there, yet their crime rate is super low, not to mention murders (by guns)...

They must put Prozac in the water up there or something. Wish it were like that down here.

In a lot of areas in the U.S. and particularly in the small towns, CRACK is responsible for up to 80% or MORE of the crimes committed. Now they have copme out with candy flavored and colored crack, and kids as young as 11 years old are getting their first taste.

Didn't Reagan guys start up the crack epidemic to fund the Contras back in the 80's??

[Link: en.wikipedia.org]

lol

its like warm apple pie.....

Is there any sharp turn toward controversy that this thread WON'T be taking??