I did not say HD-DVD was dead nor did I say that Blu-Ray will not be the ultimate winner.
It is a fact that Blu-Ray is more of an item right now because of the PS3 and not that it is a dedicated Blu-Ray Dvd Player.
I am hoping that both formats stay around so that the consumers can have a choice. Also another reason is that if there is only one choice what happens to the loser? That is, the people who bought the Blu-Ray or HD DVD and one of them is not around anymore? Who takes care of the consumer?
I know some one will be around and I bet there will be a lot of problems getting those Blu-Ray or HD players repaired when the time comes.
Will they make disc's that can be played in both formats if they deceide that only one format deserves to be around? We shall see.

I think that it is unfair that HUGE companies such as Sony and Toshiba take advantage of the consumers impulse buying habits until a distink format has arrived in the market place.
My favorite choice is HD-DVD, but
I have to concede that whoever, wins when the price is right I will buy one of these BLU-RAY/HD-DVD.

My comment was to Anthony, who stated "Also HD DVD is pretty much dead."
I could say the same thing about Blu-Ray, but I won't- Because it is not true. Just as it is not true that HD DVD is pretty much dead.
I made my choice on the two formats based on a lot of things. None of my reasons were based on who I thought would win the format war.
Even if HD-DVD dies tomorrow I still have one of the best upconverters made in the Toshiba HD-XA2.

Tell me overall the quality of the picture and sound with the Toshiba HD-XA2....The name reminds me of a B-rated 1950's Sci-Fi movie.
Also if you do not mine the price you paid and the kind of cables you used...price of the total package
Since you bought this Toshiba, if and I am only saying if the people at Toshiba
concede to Sony (Blu-Ray) will some one still be making HD-DVD's for the HD-XA2?

I saw the Reon-VX HQV chip Reon-VX HQV at work two years ago at the Home Theater Show and it was amazing. It is hard to compare something when they are not side by side and when you have not seen them for a year. However, last year at Sony's demo for Blu-Ray was very impressive to say the least but remembering the demo from the year before with the Reon-VX HQV chip it had the same quality. Now In the Toshiba XA-2...I can't wait to see it. I did not know that it was out!!

Going on vacation....Please respond....will answer when I get back...!!!

Frank52,
The PQ is just amazing on the XA-2. Here is a good read on it:
[Link: tinyurl.com]
I paid $899 for mine. And worth every penny. The Denon that uses the same chip retails for $1599.
Got to drive to California for work. Be back in a few days.

but it is and just because you don't want to admit it does not change the facts. HD DVD had two chances to win this war and both times it do what was needed. At this point if you like it or not it is just a matter of time.

The big chance was late 2004 early 2005 when they could have listened to the studios and gotten their support instead of BD. But when studios were saying 15GB and 30GB was not enough Toshiba said "what do you know, it is more then enough" when studios were saying AACS is not enough again the response was " what do you know, AACS will never be cracked or circumvented". What were they saying "[we have no idea what BD replication will cost but] BD is and will be so much more expensive to replicate that you won't have a choice to join our side and so shut up and do as we say"
That cost them many studios that went with BD. Before that HD DVD would have had the best chances (i.e. assuming we take it for granted that HD disks survive ) it would have been 70%-30% after that it became 50%-50% and when Sony announced the PS3 it became 70%-30% in BDs favour.

the last chance HD DVD had was that things will go real bad for BD, the PS3 would have issues and HD DVD would do great. None of which happened. There we4re some hics for BD but they were not even speed bumps and HD DVD did do well enough but no where near what they need. They sold 175k players all last year. That is close to 1/2 as well as DVD in 97. Yes for most of the year HD DVD had a slight lead over BD but everyone (with a brain) knew that that lead needed to be extremely BIG if HD DVD were to have a chance. Because even though HD DVD was unobstructed for 3months of the year and then was ahead for 4 months Nov and Dec -with a lead of 8:1-2:1 over that period per month. Once the PS3 came out and even though there was the 200$ add-on BD caught up and surpassed HD DVD for the year. This is in players in titles sold in everything.


to use a hockey analogy yes all hope is not lost (if you are a fanboy of the team) but to make it to the playoffs your team has to win all the next 25 games with many points, that they have to play the toughest teams, while the other teams need to lose every one of the remaining games. And your team has not gotten a point in the last two months, mostly players are sick and they are playing a game losing 4-1 at the beginning of the third period.


I can’t understand why a real AV enthusiast will tell an other that they should spend the money to get HD DVD and being stuck watching SD for most stuff because most studios don’t and won’t support HD DVD. When the guy can buy a BD player and get HD movies from all but one studio.

I can understand recommending both, only way to get everyone. But telling someone that it is better to get 50% on SD for no other reason then trying to prop format that should have never been, I just don’t get it.



So, that was your choice not to care about who will win, who will bring you more HD.... does that mean that the rest of us should not point the information out to others who do care about these stuff? From Frank”s original post he is obviously interested in not wasting his money on the wrong format, or else he would not be thinking of an upscaling player, he would have just thrown away his $$$ on an HD DVD player like you did.


But some people want toi spend money on an HD player to watch HD and not upconverted SD. His solution for upconverted SD is to buy a 230$ upconverted player and not a 800$ upconverting player because he wants to delude himself that he has an HD player

I don't know...I can't really fully support every format until movies I would want cease to come out on the other. I have to say I've seen both and both look very good. Some times BD looks a little bit better, but on other occasions you'd be suprised to find the HD-DVD looks better.

I don't own either player yet, but I'm considering two things. One is to get the player that plays both. That way I'm covered. The other is to get the HD-DVD add on for the Xbox 360 and get the drivers for it to work on the PC, which in turn is outputted to the TV. That's pretty cheap!

As for upconverting players, most of them are junk. Most of them look worse than players set to output 480i. See the thread on scaling about that.

Meridian just confirmed they will be producing a HD DVD player. I'll put my money on a company like that, plus the biggest producer of porn put out all the newest titles on HD DVD. Like it or not porn drives our industry.

My money is on a single disk holding all formats (SD, BD, and HD DVD).

Only time will tell, though.

How much time do I have? One year? Two? I'm guessing both formats will be around for at least the next 2 years.

Is that a word for word quote? Link please. Oh, and they now have a 51 gig disc. Which doesn't matter. KING KONG is the best example of HD DVD's success, it adresses all the concern from BD camp about quality to disc storage size. A 3 hour movie uncompressed, including PIP interactive cast interviews and behind the scenes footage.

I had a link somewhere regarding replication costs. But I can't find it right now, although this article touches on it a little:
[Link: theinquirer.net]
3 million for a BR replicator and 100 thousand for an HD-DVD replicator is a huge difference.
And interestingly enough the article states both formats will die.
By the way, the PS3 is the best BD player the BD camp has right now. How sad is that?
Digital Playground has bailed on Blu-Ray and started production of HD-DVD's. The replicator said they can't make adult titles because Sony would take their license away. This is a quote from Joone, the co-owner of Digital Playground:
[Link: xbiz.com]

On the other side of the coin is this quote:
"Vivid Entertainment LLC's co-chairman and co-chief executive, Steven Hirsch, says that after months of searching, he finally has found a replicator that will crank out adult movies in Blu-ray, although he won't say which company for fear of tipping off the competition. In March, he plans to release what he anticipates will be the first adult movie in both Blu-ray and HD DVD formats: "Debbie Does Dallas... Again."
Here is an article from Julie Jacobson:
[Link: cepro.com]

Actually all three of the things you mentioned happened. BD machines are too expensive for the average consumer. BD had one really good week for software sales in December, but for the most part HD DVD is greatly outselling BD as far as movies go.
PS3's do have flickering issues:
[Link: dailygame.net]
I have also heard of freezing issues.
There are 9 million x-boxes that can be upgraded to HD-DVD with a $200 add-on. I think there are less than 250,000 PS3's sold so far @ $600. They are gathering dust in the big box stores where I live.
Lastly, HD-DVD is doing great. They are outselling the BD camp in hardware and software.



I was not saying a person should buy the XA-2 for the upconversion alone. I was pointing out that my player will never be a boat anchor. Something that might happen to your Sammy (or whatever you own) someday.

I do care who wins. That is why I spent my money on HD-DVD.
They will win too. Just wait and see.

Star Trek, LOTR and the Matrix series. I can't wait!

Anthony,
We have both made our choices, right or wrong. I know I will not convince you to change your mind. Just like you will not convince me to change my mind.
But I do want to add this:
Think of the average consumer walking in to a big box store that knows very little about either format. The price difference between the players will most likely be the deciding factor in this format war. Which means HD-DVD will win hands down. And entry level players from the Chinese will soon be showing up @ $250 to $300 for a player. I doubt any BR player will get down to that price for a long, long time.

Onkyo is coming out with this:
[Link: tinyurl.com]

On interactive features from here:
[Link: pcmag.com]

"One of the biggest improvements that HD DVD has over Blu Ray is the interactive content on their discs, the group claimed. Take King Kong, Superman Returns, MI:3, and The Fast and the Furious(Tokyo Drift) for example: the "Extras" on the disc feature black and white storyboards and in-depth commentaries from the actors and producers. In Tokyo Drift, they actually embedded a virtual GPS device that mapped out the exact location of the speed chases in Japan."

You really think HD-DVD is pretty much dead. Now THAT is funny!

Anybody see the LG dual format player @ CES. Looked pretty nice. They are claiming release in March I believe at about $1200. Which really means sometimes this summer @ $1500.

I am still at a point where I can't recommend either format to a client. Unfortunately I don't believe it will be the better technology that wins the game, anybody remember Beta?? As an pro it is not worth the gamble for me to risk my clients money, which really is a shame.

Roddy,
Can't say I blame you for not wanting to install either one.
Murphy's Law says- The format you install will be the one that fails.
But what if a customer requested one of the two and you had to recommend one. Would you attempt to talk them out of it, make them choose or let them trust your (best guess) judgement.
A lot of people sound anxious to purchase the combo player LG announced. But it doesn't sound like a great machine, spec wise. So that might not be a solution either.

Depends what you mean. If you want Sony movies = 0, Disney =0, Fox=0, MGM=0, LG=0 plus every studio that belongs under those names

As for HD DVD as a whole, my guess less then 1y before HD DVD starts losing support


I was just paraphrasing. But the signs and the articles are all there for you to get the history if you feel like searching.


No they don’t Toshiba just said 51 is doable and we will bring it in front of the DVD forum soon the same way they have been saying 45GB is doable and that they will bring it in front of the DVD forum soon for the past 1.5 years +. Also you better hope it does not because if it does your player is useless.


If it does not the why BS that it is here now? Funny how I do not go around talking about 200GB BD even though they have been proven (something the 51 has been done yet)


It is a good example. No lossless audio video compression artefacts, and when it will be released in Europe it will need to drop some of the features you mentioned because they will need to add more lossy languages.


Try here [Link: proactionmedia.com] they replicate both

HD DVD Replication	Single Layer 15GB	Dual Layer 30GB
5,000 Discs	$1.69 ea	$1.99 ea
10,000 Discs	$1.55 ea	$1.85 ea
25,000 Discs	$1.45 ea	$1.69 ea
100,000 Discs	$1.35 ea	$1.55 ea

Blu-Ray DVD Replication	Single Layer 25GB
5,000 Discs	$1.99 ea
10,000 Discs	$1.79 ea
25,000 Discs	$1.59 ea
100,000 Discs	$1.49 ea

[Link: theinquirer.net]
3 million for a BR replicator and 100 thousand for an HD-DVD replicator is a huge difference.

so you found one bd article? Why don’t you try asking replicators that have both? Late 2005 Cinram said that BD was a bit more expensive but that it costs around the same as HD DVD. They are both around 1M$. The 100k should be 200k and that is to modify a DVD line into n HD DVD line on the other hand the cycle time is around 1/2 and the reject rate is much higher. At least according to Cinram (that does the replication for Fox and WB) these don’t make sense because the profit in a year from new lines should more then cover the initial price difference.



No it is not. Itr is an excellent player, but not the best. It comes out ahead of the Samsung but behind the rest. If you mean best by best selling, then yes it is, but the add-on is the best selling HD DVD player and that is even more sad



Yes there are only a few replicators and some of them don’t want to replicate porn. So Digital Playground decided to do HD DVD first (while looking) and Vivid decided not to go public with their info to have an advantage over their competition



You blast the PS3 for being the best player and then you say BD machines are more expensive.


check again go with any retailer or all grouped together you will see BD has been outselling HD DVD for over a month now.
| but for the most part HD DVD is greatly outselling BD as far as movies go.

Show nme a link

But 9M 360 does not mean 9M idiots willing to spend their money on HD DVD nor 9M add-ons to be bought if the idiots did exist. As for BD the number is just under 2M (if not over by now) Where the hell did you get such a ridiculous number from. There where 250k sold in the US the first day.
| They are outselling the BD camp in hardware and software.

Now that shows delusion. You said 250k PS3 (even though much higher) and we know there were only 175k HD DVD players (including add-on) we did not add the stand alone BD players to the mix and yet you can say in HW HD DVD has outsold BD.


Why not, that will be a good use of it :). If someone is interested in upconverting DVDs they can spend much less and get a better machine. Also let’s say HD DVD does dissapear, what will you do? Go back to DVD or go buy a new HD player to enjoy HD movies. If you buy a new player will you keep your HD DVD for upconverting or will you use that one player for DVDs and BDs? Not to mention that even if HD DVD is still around if they move to 51GB disks you still have a useless machine


Well I have a Samy and a PS3. On the other hand I recommend to the guy a PS3 because a t the end of the day he will still have an exceptional gaming machine. But if that happens it means the dream of HD disks is dead so we are all losers.


Paramountm, New Line and Warner all three from studios also supporting BD. Warner has in the past hampered BD because it did not want to make the BD better but even that looks to be changing. So you can have your crappier versions while I have my better ones.

On the other hand

Rocky (MGM), Terminator (LG), Spiderman(Sony), Star Wars (Fox), Cars(Disney)
Are BD and not HD DVD

Roddy: the LG is already out. On the other hand

it is not fully HD DVD complient
it does not have an HD DVD logo
and
it is not HD DVD certified.

I would not recommend it to a client as an HD DVD player (and if someone wants both I think it better to put ion a PS3 and either the 360+add on or one of the cheaper HD DVD players. Comes out to the same price

I don't see their dual player on their web site. At CES they were showing a player that does both formats and played CD's as well.

I tell my clients the truth. I don't know what format will win. I will not even speculate at this point. I will answer any specific questions they have, and if they want me to put in a player it will be the one of their choice with no guarantees from me.

It's not worth the risk of being wrong to me to eat a mistake.

I doubt that.

We? I don't get it.

200GB has been done?

I don't live in Europe.

Actually I do consider the PS3 a gaming machine, which also plays BR discs.
I'm not a gamer. So I really have no interest in it or the Xbox add-on.

Over a month? Wow. I am impressed.

2 mil shipped maybe, but not sold.
Read this if you want:
[Link: gamesindustry.biz]
In the Portland area I ask every employee at the stores I frequent how each gaming system (and the Xbox add-on) are selling. Been doing this weekly. Xbox add-ons are selling ok and the PS3's are gathering dust.

I consider my purchase as a consumable. And one I'm really enjoying at the moment.
Hell, I might go back and watch one of my 800 Laserdiscs. And I still do watch one from time to time. Just because a format dies is no reason to bail.

We might all lose anyway if it becomes a niche market and another superior technology comes along that the consumers get convinced they need.

My crappier version of Aeon Flux or Superman Returns?

You got me there. Star Wars and Spiderman in particular.
Never said things were perfect. Actually BR has quite a few titles I want on HD-DVD.

I do have a lot of respect for the studios that chose to support both sides.

A few parting thoughts:

Price of standalone HD-DVD players are much cheaper and you get much more for that lower price.
Some of the things you get "extra" with a HD-DVD player over a BD player are the new advanced HD audio decoders built into the players, because they are required as part of the format.
Better interactivity that is available with ALL HD-DVD players because they are mandatory from the start. BD players sold now will not be able to do everything that the format will/could provide because the BDA decided to create 4 different profiles of players (3 video/1 audio).
Better average PQ with HD-DVD over BD that looks not only more detailed but looks smoother with motion.

Lastly:
Anthony,
You got me going on this because you said HD-DVD is pretty much dead. I adamantly disagree with that statement. And will continue to disagree with that statement until it is dead (: