Julie -

I left Jason a message this morning. We don't do work for CC anymore - but I've definitely got "experience" to share!

isnt CC going ALL in-house for thier installations now with firedog, just like BB did with magnolia?

On another note, BB and CC get some of their employees from people whom have tried to operate their own CI business and failed. I have witnessed this and found that those people tend to be a little bitter and since their performance no longer reflects on them but rather the big box they blame for putting them out of business, they care less about their quality of workmanship.

I ran into one lately that was simple (DLP, Stand, fished speakers) but everything was done as I would have done it. It was initiated by CC so I can't tell you whether it was in house or contracted (betting on the latter). I started my business doing installs for Good Guys. I took pride in everything I did and built a reputation. 5 years later I was hired by Good Guys to run a corporate Install department. There's where a serious dichotomy became apparent... and Julie you can quote this if it makes sense.

Box stores move boxes... they hire some very good people to figure out how to move boxes and more boxes and then more boxes after that. When they enter custom they try to MOVE it. You don't MOVE construction... you DO it. You CREATE things. Box stores are not building electronics... they are stacking them up and moving them out the door as fast as they will move.

I failed at Good Guys because I couldn't separate the construction philosophy from the bottom line "we gotta do more" philosophy. One of my best clients has a very successful manufacturing business that is over 30 years old started by his dad. Two years ago he started a construction company to install his products. He now faces bankruptcy as he spread out too far and too thin. He didn't think through mobile manpower issues, fuel costs, traffic, schedules, subs that don't show, etc. etc. etc. He was used to getting all his profit when a sale was made... not being on the hook for creating something to achieve his profit.

Simple, one day, replicatable installs may be the thing for BBs and CCs and I know some good people are trying to figure out how to make it work but when serious project management and construction are involved I just don't see how the two opposite cultures will exist together. The idea I had at Good Guys was to separate install completely and make it another company. This was poo-poo'd and all I can say is... Where is the nearest good guys store today? Locally, Magnolia Hi-Fi opened the Design Center. It is an incredible place and staffed with the best of the salespeople at Magnolia... it's a far cry from the stores inside of BB... they successfully pull of 3/4 million dollar projects. BB is obviously trying to replicate this model but there will be too much pressure from the box movers to "get them profits faster...move more installs". I can see contests where prizes are awarded for moving the most installs and some shark who hits people at the door but cares about nothing but his wallet will win the trip to Cabo... leaving a trail of confused and pissed off installers in his wake.

Let's take another industry (and I'm sure other parallels exist). Some people go to Supercuts... you may get a good haircut... you may get screwed by the newest of newbies. Others go to a small salon because they heard about the stylist from afriend and now will use no one else. The small salon charges more but is worth it. I have a weird cowlick that is hard to cut around but my regular stylist has it down... why would I risk looking goofy for $15.00 in savings? Some stylists charge mega bucks and cater to the stars... others are happy with ther own shop in their own neighborhood... some are brand new and supercuts is giving them a start... but someday they'll have enough clientele to do this for themselves. This industry, like our own, has room for us all.

Hmmm. Maybe I'll whore myself out to Sears!!! "Uh what ya mean ya want the wires hidden?!?!?

Actually that is interesting that Sears takes the hit if a contractor screws up. I wonder if Sears' insurance also the sub-- ya know what I mean?

A few years ago while subbing for B&O we had a little "water problem", flooded out 7 condo units!!! B&O picked up the tab via their insurance. NICE!

Whoa! Excuse me while I go take a cold shower!

Julie...
Sad, but true. However, an installer or install from a BB could be worse, due to lack of QC and communication on the part of the BB or Project Manager. It's easy enough to be spread too thin with say 5 or 6 installs going on at any one time, for a small CI company -- yet with A BB having dozens of installs going on on a regular basis is just a recipe for disaster - maybe not initially, but the follow up, fixit - list is like a big snowball rolling down a hill, and will get bigger and bigger, until it becomes an avalanche!

I mean, with all of the details, and pickiness on the part of residential customers, even a GOOD install company has a hard time at the "end" of the install going over the punch-list - imagine the poor guy (project manager or Install Dept. Manager) at a BB trying to orchestrate and follow up on issues on a daily basis with several installs!!!

Julie, try this... either yourself, or one of your staff, call 4 or 5 of your local BB electronics stores, and see:

1. If anyone even answers the phone - seriously!!! I had to Call B*Buys for some info a while ago, and it took me no less than 9 attempts to get through, sometimes letting the A-V department's phone ring for several minutes before I had to hang up. Finally when I asked the guy a Yamaha product question...(and I am NOT kidding), he said "Uh, Yamaha??? we don't sell Yamaha..." I said sure you do the customer just bought a receiver there the other day...The sales guy said "Sorry sir I am telling you we DON"T sell it"! I drove to the fricking store and had to get the info I needed!!!

2. Ask them an install related question (even try to get an estimate) i.e. How can I operate my gear inside of a closed cabinet? - Will heat be a problem?

3. Ask them to call back, and see what happens -- will they call back at all?

4. Try and reach the same person the next day!

Your point that there are a lot of funky CI guys (new and uh, experienced) is very well taken, and unfortunate... But after seeing a few of the above posts, and hearing from rhm9 - who ran installs for a Good Guys... Well let me just say this...

I would be comfortable in going to a H-Depot, and having them send out a licensed sub to install a water heater, or even put in recessed lighting in a few rooms of my house... Audio Video stuff - due to all of the multiple variables and complexities is a totally different animal. Even installing a Plasma, concealing the wiring, providing power, adding some in-wall or in ceiling surrounds, installing the electronics in a cabinet, hooking up to the Cable or Sat receiver, making sure that the HDMI stuff all shakes hands OK, or at the least the comonent cables are all properly hooked up, and everything is fine tuned, and the remote runs everything, in a manner that the customer can comprehend - is really no easy task (although it SHOULD be).
The above is probably a majority of what the BB customers are requesting, and it gives me chills to imagine this being carried out on a "Mc-Install" basis.

I'm not being overly reactive or defending us smaller guys -- it is just that I cannot imagine the multitudes of headaches the bulk of the consumers will be going through out there, only to give our industry a funkier reputation.

It is a shame that "Our" organization -- C*dia has not been more Pro-Active in setting up a higher visability conduit so to speak - for directing the general public our way with more marketing -- i.e. "Live in BearBut Montana??? Contact Blah Blah Blah to take care of your Home Electronics needs"...

Sure, they do a LITTLE bit of this, but still are very low on the general public's radar.

Maybe if C*dia were to carefully interview CI's in the major cities, and be instrumental in setting up referrals to those CI's and received a monetary % for their referral efforts, the better CI's would be busier, and Joe public would have fewer bad experiences with the BB's that are hiring knuckle draggers to do their work?


It's in the details, and due to the general lack of simplicity of todays stuff. That is why (imho), the IPOD is such a fantastic success -- it is simple and it works... Go out and buy a Receiver, DVD, HD TV, TIVO take it home and hook it up to your Cable box, and when you start running into firmware problems, HDMI issues, ground loops, difficulties programming all of these things, and finally have to call the store to have "a guy" come out... Well enough said ;)

That is why again, (imho), it was not a surprise to see Mr. Travis' problems with H*me T*chnologies and his plans for franchising the CI business. It's too bad really, because he had a fairly good idea, worked really hard, had a lot of success & they have a cool operation going, with some very talented and experienced people, but it took them years and years to find those people, and a TON of money and buy-outs in order to do so, and yet they are still not exactly "coasting"...

The whole CI thing just is not an easy thing to do --- and that is why I sort of chuckle when I see all these enthusiastic newcomers, getting a little seed money, or landing a couple big jobs, and jumping on the bandwagon thinking they'll be out buying themselves a new Porsche Twin Turbo for themselves in a year or two...
SOMEONE might figure it out, on a large scale... but, untill all this stuff shakes hands better, and more of it goes wireless (ala SONOS & B&O)... it will continue to be a challenge.

Hey gotta say though, I love CE magazine and have been collecting them over the years... Great articles and insights -- REALLY!!!

This is a well timed thread. I’m not an installer but know about basic set ups. Over the weekend I went over to a neighbors house where they had just bought a system from Circuit City: 50” Plasma TV (over the fireplace), basic receiver, DVD, and an infinity sub/sat system. They paid CC (was actually done by some 3rd party outfit) to do the install. Problem was they weren’t hearing much sound out of the surrounds so I said I’d come over to check the levels.

The actual installation and connections looked ok as far as I could tell. The installers even ran a HDMI cable for a future receiver upgrade. However, the DVD player was still set to 480i which I changed to 480p, and the speaker levels weren’t set at all. I had an RS sound meter and it took just a few minutes to balance the speakers. The sound was noticeably better after that.

What gets me is why do all the “heavy lifting” and not spend a few minutes more to set up the sound levels and other basics? It’s as if they knew how to do the installation but not what the point was of what they were doing. Al

My 2 cents on this scenario is that CC and BB (and others like them) have their place...and we have ours fixing their problems, as well as many other newbies, and veterans (that have come from different but similar industries), AND creating hopefully truely wonderful LONG-TERM experiences and relationships with our clients.

For me, a large portion of my new clients come from bad experiences (many others from referrals), and want things done right...even if it costs them more! What they really want is a person to person LONG-TERM relationship, that when something goes wrong they have an actual person that they know they can trust to take care of them.

How many big box companies would be willing to give a great customer a loaner amp at no charge while their's is in for service? Or how about borrowing a TV while they decide what will make the most sense for them? Or maybe an outdoor set of speakers and amp for a party? Does this cost us money...it may cost a little time and effort, but the returns generally far outweigh our opportunity costs.

true example, A good client of ours is having a party, and wants to add some speakers outside to his multi room system and make sure it works for his party. We get him set up with a basic system (loaner gear due to short notice), and charge for the labor. He has his party, invites us to join him and his guests for this party, and tells a vast majority of his friends that we 'hooked him up' and that they should 'definitely talk to us first before making any of their Audio/Video purchases'. The outcome the customer bought 3 pairs of JAMO outdoor speakers a Niles SI2125, a Water proof RTI remote, and continues to be thankful to us. In addition we have gotten 4 other jobs since early August because of the clients referrals.

The big boxes as was so elegantly stated dont have the means to offer the same level of service that we can. They are there to push boxes, make quota, and move on to the next customer (and hopefully get spiff'ed in the interim)...and here is the big difference, I can only speak for myself, but I am not looking for my next customer, I am looking to grow my client list...I am looking to have continued contact with my clients for years to come, as they are the future of my business.

Finally, for your article, you may want to look at the Big Box business model to understand their installation needs. They NEED installation, their products have very little margin, and if they don't offer something to the clients that need that flat panel mounted above their fireplace, they will likely lose that customer completely (or they buy the Panel, and then have one of us do the install sell the extra's, and gain them as a client, but again lose the customer for a very long time), and thus push fewer and fewer boxes as time goes on.

In the old days their business model was about pushing more, bigger, and expensive boxes, as quickly as possible, and making up for sales on volume, and lower operating cost per dollar of income/revenue...and they did well. Today that is still the model, but things like lifestyle, design, integration, ease of use, and choice are hindering their profitability. These are things that are the antithisis (sp?) of the Big Box business model (they take time and knowledge). As much as I hate best buy, I have to give them their due credit for attempting to change their concept, and try to create a more personalized experience, and for many customers it is enough. If they had not been forth right in adapting all they would have been left with is competing on price with the internet, or costco's...But getting into installation as RHM states, is not about moving boxes, and thus very hard for them to get right.

Finally, the other big difference is the issue of long term client versus short term customer. We want our customers to call/email us, and continue to business with us, the big boxes don't have the time or the proper personell to do what it takes.

Watch them continue to fail while we clean up their messes; and continue to grow!

The sad thing is it is not up to you wether or not the business will fail. Your personal influence can only stretch so far. The reason it will fail is because of the limitations the business places on you and your fellow employees. Be it legal or insurance or time. Big Box custom retail is simply an oxy-moron.

Of course they get people from us, but they get just as many bad apples as good. They get a lot of the rejects that are not retained. That is to say "GOOD people are the most important part of out business". Not just people/bodies.

I wish you the best of luck, but you do not know any of us enough to assume you are of the upper tier of knowledge or talent.

Julie,
If you worked for Fine Food magazine, would you write an article on Chucky-cheese?
So why would CEPRO spend money on this trash?
I sense a conspir- no I wont say it.
Please hope this isnt true. It would be shamefull.

If chucky cheese (my first job, by the way) were trying to get into the gourmet food biz, you bet I would. Clearly there's a lot of interest in the subject.

sorry but I just dont see these folks doing 15000 sqf homes with full integration.
plunking tvs on the wall, stuffing speakers in and wraping it all up with a disharmony remote just doesnt qualify to me!

Please tell me you didn't wear the mouse suit.

oh yes I did.