Hey guys,

Went to a site survey today. The customer wants a theater room in a finished room. The room is basically square 20X20. The customer mentioned that a previous company had been in and had suggested acoustic panels. I told him that we could get some for him but we have never really installed them befor. We generally install home theater rooms in the $7-12K range.

My question is how often do you install acoustic panels in your jobs? Do you feel that they are truely beneficial? Do you have to bring in an acoustic expert to locate the panels? I read one website that said to use mirrors to see the speakers and to put the panels there. Is it that simple?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Dave T

Acoustics is a lot more than just adding panels. Room proportions have a major effect as well and a square room is BAD. There are a number of resources. Kinetics is a company that I have used in the past and unlike a lot of "acoustic" companies they are more about good sound than pretty rooms.

I love coming to this forum after a really hard day, and a couple of cocktails. Always good for a couple of laughs. I just read another one where a guy asked how to "square up" his projector lens. Has anyone noticed that it's called the "custom installers lounge"? Not the "i Think I'll start my own A/V company but don't know WTF I'm doing lounge"

Started doing more panels and wall treatment recently. The customers love it, and I find that it is a nice option to be able to offer...
Like mentioned above...Kinetics has some interesting stuff, and you can eaither start out pretty basic - or go nuts!
I think you can always do more good than harm. Personally I like a slightly "dead" Theater.
A couple of jobs recently were really cost sensitive, so I worked with the contractors to have them make wall-panel frames (using 2x2's), inserted Owens Corning 703 panels inside, and wrapped them with nice material from Guilford of Maine.
Both rooms sound really really nice. There have been a number of threads and postings here about basic theory on improving room acoustics with acoustic panel placement.

One of the above theaters was floor to ceiling Owens Corning, with a live (hard) backwall. It looked like a million dollars too -- but materials ran $300 for the Owens Corning, $400 for the fabric, $150 for the 2x2's and about 40 hours of labor.
Generally you could expect to pay $10 to $15,000 for a room treatment like this...

The second theater was a room 20 x 25 with 10 foot ceilings. We installed (8) 4 by 6 foot panels (side and rear walls), and had tem trimmed out by the finish carpenter to match the trim in the room. Looked very nice and we were all pleasantly surprised at how dramatically it reduced the echoe and reflected sound in the room.

With margins going away on electronics, it is also a good source of added income, while giving the client a heck of a good deal too!

It's also another way for your company to differentiate itself a little from your competitors, and I believe CEDIA usually has a workshop or two that would help you out on the science end of things.

Of course you can also do involved acoustical room measurements and analysis, if you have the equipment and training -- a company I worked with years ago did computerized "teft" (sp)? measurements... but again it is pretty hard to screw it up - doing some basic wall treatment, vs. not using any treatment..(I know I'll get hammered on for saying that)... But a little treatment can go a long way.

There are also some new wall-board materials out there that you could use that offer high levels of sound isolation too, just be careful not to over-promise though... These are enhancements, and should be mentioned in that vein. Totally isolating a theater is another story altogether & usually only for the very high $$$ projects, and you would be wise to hire an acoustical consulting firm (or as Cied would say - a PRO) for an undertaking like that!

Mattman and Mr. Stanley,

Thanks for your comments. They were very helpful and constructive. Acoustics are not my strong point. I am not trying to isolate and sound proof the room I am just trying to improve upon the quality of sound for the room with the budget my customers have.

1armscissor, I did not appreciate your comment. That is all I will say.

Any other tips would be appreciated,

Dave T

1armscissor...

You reek of the stench of arrogance! DaveTs been here a while... a little longer than you. Someone who has been doing mostly low end to mid end theatres but perhaps now has a chance to better himself and has the balls to admit that he hasn't done this yet and wants to learn, doesn't need your type of comment. Perhaps you need to have about 6 more cocktails and spend the rest of the night praying to the porcelain god rather than spewing here.

As far as the squaring thread... I left with the impression that some people take the extra time to really do things right and others just slam.

DaveT. When I got my first big theatre I was able to have the room designed by an acoustician and followed the construction plan. The video was calibrated by an ISF technician. Don't be afraid to reach out to other professionals in this area as hands on help and watching them is the best way to learn. Clients love the fact that they're getting someone who specializes in a certain area to really tweak their room. It is more than just mirrors. It's a true science that I doubt any of us have really mastered. I use sound transmission subcontractors to isolate my rooms, acousticians to deaden them and figure out the best seating locations and other designers (interior, lighting) to bring in visual elements that my not so right brained ass just doesn't see. The key is to form your team and be the orchestrator. You can use this kind of reasoning to whatever level the clients budget allows.

I would also check in with CEDIA classes from Tony Grimani, Floyd Toole and John Dahl or Tom Holman from THX. Even an hour and half with one of these guys is worth tons. If Theo Kalomirakis is there this year you'll learn a lot about design elements.

As far as this particular room... I agree with Matt... a square room is not good. Build some side walls... they will get you to 20X15 or 20X14 and provide extra sound separation. If you scoot the theatre to one side and enter at the middle you might end up with something like an equipment room toward the front and a media storage room/popcorn, fridge, microwave snack center on the other with some kind of really cool entry marquee. There are some really awesome light boxes on the internet that use $20.00 replaceable posters and they make for great entry glitz. Planning these spaces is what really makes this job fun for me... enjoy the best part and may your project turn out awesome.

I recommend taking the HAA class ASAP. Acoustics are a BIG deal if you want to do a high-performance room, which they all should be! After the class you should be knowlegable enough to spec in a simple package. We use Acoustic Innovations to design our more complex packages (along with some of our own designs).

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Try auralex.com. We use their products for the customers who do not have the budget for Acoustic Innovations. They also have some good information on basic acoustics on their site. I have taken both the HAA class and the THX certification class and they are both well worth it. If you don’t have the time or money for that right now pick up the book Master Handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest, a must read for anyone who wants to get into acoustics.

I second Auralex as well as RPG, RPG makes great custom panels including mahogony skyline panels

Hey guys,

I wish to thank you all for your comments and suggestions. A wise man once said "hire a pro" My plan is to see if I can find a local acoustic guru in my area, Washington, DC. and colaborate with him on some of these rooms.

I am hoping that an acoustic person may read this and contact me. I also have other freinds in the area and will see if they know someone with an acoustic background.

Soundsgood and JCMA thanks for the tip about Auralex. I have been to their website and plan on studying their Acoustics101 course.

Roland, thanks for the suggestions. You and the guys are why I come here. I apprecitate you all your comments.

Dave T

Somebody starting out in this stuff should NOT read the Master Handbook of Acoustics. Thats ridiculous. It'd be like getting the Ferrari F1 team car construction manual to build a go kart.

There is so much basic acoustic information out there that can get you started. The high end designers like Grimani and Erskine will cost a lot - most likely a lot more than someone who only wants panels on the wall wants to pay.

here's my quickest and dirtiest recommendation for improving sound in a small room for someone who doesn't know anything on the subject:

1. panels - 1 inch think panel only absorbs to 1000hz, 2 inch thick to 500hz. the trick is to use 2 inch panels but mount them an inch or two off the wall and they now go down to about 100hz. Much better.

2. Nothing much you can do with bass below 100hz - other than proper placement and setup.

3. First reflection points are critical and the mirror trick works - don't forget the ceiling and the floor.

If you were to put two inch think panels one or two inches off the walls and ceiling at the first reflection points you would do more than what most people do and would go a long way to improving the sound quality in the room. While no way to quantify the improvements over the internet, I bet it would sound at least twice as good for only a few thousand dollars list. And you can get finished panels with your choice of fabric from many places on the cheap. There's not much to them. Just rigid fiberglass with some fabric and some glue.

With all that said, a square room is a sonic disaster. You have to find some way to change one of the dimensions. Hell, make it shorter and build a screen wall and put your nice big floor standing speakers behind the wall.

So much for Mr. nice guy. I have to admit, the degenerate in me wants to agree a bit with 1arm. See my previous "harsh" posts in other recent threads.

Oh, and what dope posted the dealer margin for AI on a public website? Thanks man. Thats a really smart move.

And to answer the original posters question in the title of the thread - I put panels and treatments in every theater room I do. Well, every dedicated room i do.

Not true. Ever try corner modex bass traps?

Don't be such a jerk to the guy, he said he was hiring a pro before you posted your response.

Ejfiii,
Some excellent points. The mirror trick, although not very scientific - with a few well placed panels can make a HUGE improvemnet in the sound. I have seen so many rooms (and I admit I've done some too), where a lot of money was invested in very high-end speakers and components, yet the finished room sounded -- well, not horrible, but sure didn't sound as good as it coupld have.

I'd put a mid-fi theater with good acoustical treatment, up against a high end theater with square dimensions and zero treatment just about anytime.

The one obstacle of course is convincing the H/Owner of the benefits, and some times they just won't bite -- (usually Mrs. Homeowner).
Being able to take them into a well done room, and show them the vast array of high-quality fabrics helps though.

At the very least, adding fairly heavy draperies bordering the screen, and maybe running a ways up each side wall, can help at the very least.

It IS a science though, and to do it correctly - you will need a pro-albeit their time is NOT cheap - nor are their solutions and products, but for those who want the best --- why not?

I know a problem a lot of guys get into is either over or under damping things, but again I'd rather have a dampened room, than an echoe chamber!

Acoustic Innovations, Kinetics, Theo..., as well as Owens Corning all have great solutions for various price ranges and requirements.

A local High-End store in town had a pair of $125,000 Wilson Audio speakers on display in one of their sound-rooms. The speakers sounded totally amazing, with some of the most effortless, powerful and clean bass response you could imagine...
A week later I took a friend to the store. They had moved the speakers to another room, about the same dimensions, but with different acoustical treament -- They sounded like absolute crap! The bass was almost nonexistant below 100 hz., the soundstage was almost wiped out (I even checked the speaker leads to see if maybe they were out of phase!) -- but it was just the difference in the "room tuning"... That is what really got me thinking about the impact of room acoustics on my projects.

I'm happy to help out my clients, but if they are "well heeled $$$", I'd never hesitate to bring in a good aoustician with a proven track record. I'm sure there are a lot of "acousticians" who, like some CI guys, can talk a good talk, but don't really serve the customer very well -- so try and find a good guy in your area that has been around a long time and has good references... Ohterwise for the lower end "everyman" installs try the panel thing... I could email you a few pictures of some of the panels and wall treatments done recently...

Umm, yea I use corner traps. But only when doing stretch fabric walls and I can hide them. i certainly don't want them out in view in a nice room.

And if my long post of lots of tips and tricks was me being a jerk, you don't know me well at all. I can be a real dick. If you actually read my post you would see my real jerky comments are meant for the idiot who posted the AI margins on a public forum - not the original poster.