I'm still puzzled about something: As one of the few guys who doesn't want to re-sell, and I'm happy to do installs of customer-owned gear. I will advise if asked, help shop (at a price), and I do mark up anything I provide, such as cabling, hardware, switchers, remotes, etc. (I also never have to call in an electrician for power.)

Why can't you have a price for labor if you also provide equipment, and a price if you do only the labor? Any time you have a job and the customer suprises you with a "Here, use this instead of yours," just say "Okay, but we'll also (<--- key word here) need to re-negotiate the cost and conditions (warranty, etc.)

I'm happy to accomodate any changes the customer wants, as long as they accept that the costs for my share of the job has to be just as flexible. I'll only charge for what I do, but I'm not locked into a price if the specifics of the job are not also locked in. If they ask why it costs more for you to install their gear, tell them.

The most important part of being firm is to make sure you always owe them more in work or equipment than they owe you in money. Never leave anything that hasn't been paid for. We're not banks, and we don't lend money, unless there's interest on the balance. We're doing that for the extras on a restaurant we're wiring.

Maybe I'm just naive. Better lucky than good? Naah, I'm good and lucky.

Yep, as Don Trump would say... yer fired!

This is exactly what we do. We charge two different labor rates based on whether we are providing equipment or not, and have a warranty clause in our terms. Works fine for most people. Occasionally I get someone who balks, and I explain that if someone else is going to make money on the equipment, then they can afford to support the product. Be sure to review how that works with that commercial plasma they bought form www.belowcostjunkplasmas.com :)

Just my $.02 worth.

Fred

It's quite simple actually. If they went to the builder or the cabinet maker and told them that they were going to buy all the wood, windows, hardware, ect. for them to to use, they would tell these people to get bent. Then if their 20 year old son started telling the builder he was a poor businessman, or the cabinet maker he should use a different jig they would laugh in his face. They obviously cannot see the value in your service. This is a no win situation. For them to expect you to install stuff you didnt supply is not only insulting but retarded. Are they gonna expect you to offer support too? Who are they gonna call if there is a problem? Certainly they should call the place they bought it from right? No they should call the installers. But why would you support it? If you cannot get the builder to understand this then I would not be afraid to lose him as a customer. Two words: Run

Vincent,

They've done exactly that to the builder. They went and purchased their own foldout window wall... sure of themselves that it fit within the framing... it didn't and their expectation was for my builder to just suck it up ad reframe. They also bought their own fireplaces which required re-framing.

I don't know all of the agony but I think the builder is losing his hair... I know he can't wait to get this job done. He is the main reason I'm still doing this... if it wasn't for the relationship I have with such a quality guy I'd have withdrawn without a second thought. like I posted... I have his permission to bail with no hard feelings but I'll stay on as long as it works in part to help him. I also have the only place the client can buy what he wants in town in on the game plan now... sometimes it pays to just be friendly with your competition.

I won't proceed without a signed agreement over what I'm responsible for, what I'm to be paid, when I'm to be paid and what they must still purchase from me... but then again, isn't that what we're supposed to have on every job?

And isn't "run" one word? I kept looking for the other word.

Thanks for the input... may none of you have to deal with someone like this (even though unfortunately most of you will)

Just another story……………

While working for one of my favorite builders I had his client come to me at the end of the rough-in stage with my proposal in one hand and a product sheet in his other hand from somewhere else (big box store), stood right in my face and asked me point blank about this other product that he had seen at ______ (fill in the blanks with what ever name you want) that he could purchase for less money that was very similar in regard to my proposal. Very briefly, this person was a very tall engaging person, recently retired from a good position in a large company and seemed somewhat intimidating to some people on the job. My reply standing toe to toe with this person not holding back anything to be too polite was “I will use what ever product you decide on but it better not be my phone that rings when you have questions about operating this stuff or something goes wrong with it.” His reply was (and not too surprisingly) “I like that answer.” then immediately proceeded to crumble up the other cost sheet and toss it out.

Sometimes, and I know not always, being firm with your client will get their attention in the right way. Taking charge of a situation can show the client that you have confidence in what you do. I had no idea of what this guys reaction was going to be when I fired back at him and I also knew that the builder was not going to fire me for defending the service that I provide for his client After all, the builder is the one who brings us into the job because they trust us and know that we will do a good job. Otherwise, the builder would go somewhere else.

Going through the same thing. I was brought in by the architect. Almost walked away during ther contract negotiations, but hung in there because I did not want to let the architect down (in hind site this was very stupid). This should have been my first clue to run away, but my loyalty to the architect clouded my judgement (she has since told me that the next time something like that happens that I can do what I think is best for me and just give her an explanation).

This client will suck the life out of you by wasting your time trying to make a decision. Oh, and the complaining about the contractor or any given sub is wild (he complains about me behind my back). I've started adding an additional 5% to the my regular price of products for all of the new additions/change orders as a pain in the butt fee.

He's a real piece of work as he's filed a complaint against the architect to the governing board for architects because he felt that she didn't meet her project management obligations (this is pure crap, he's trying to get out of paying the final bill). He's held back money for the builder for similar reasons and can not get the builder to come back to do any extra work and he continues to eat away my time. Through out the process he's told me he could always get various items cheaper somewhere else. All this on a million dollar post & beam weekend house.

Last week I finally met all of my contractually obligations (no thanks to the electrician, builders cousin, $#@!*&, there's bad sparkies and good ones, he's a real bad one). The client is now asking for additional work and is busting my butt because I can't do the work right away or on the day he wants the work to be done.

Time to fire the client and run away.

you guys to tattoo the 80/20 rule on your body somewhere.

80% of your assache will come from 20% of your clients
80% of your profits will come from 20% of your clients

Guess who gets fired and who gets special attention?

Also DONT EVER FORGET A good deal/situation only gets better. A bad deal/situation only gets worst. Look back and this will prvoe true in almost all situations.

OEX, that was truly prolific. That's as close as anyone will get to quantifying this thnkg, andd you did it in just a a few words.

OEX, that was truly prolific. That's as close as anyone will get to quantifying this thnkg, and you did it in just a a few words.

Good enuf to be responded to twice. I am truly honered.

So very true, but it's hard to fire the client when your contractually obligated to provide product and services (Oh, I forgot to mention, this client's wife is a Federal Court Judge). The builder has already started to refuse new work, or should I say fired the client, no he's too busy, . As of the end of this week I'm in that position too :-)

Run Away, Run Away.

We have a similar experience with a client. The GC warned us up front, but because we have such a good relationship with the GC we bid it high and got the job. We have not had near as many problems as the GC, cabinet company, painters, flooring, tile and electrical. They are all ready to do something to the client. He shows up on time for meetings, then his wife strolls in 30 min later and wants everyone to go over the discussions all over again. We finally gave him a window and if they ran into the end of the window we left. It got the point accross. They either both show up now or only the husband.

The bid called for in wall center speaker for the family room. We recvd call asking if we wanted the drywall folks to remove the speaker so they can fill the hole in. In shock we asked what the heck was going on. Seems they had the new media cabinet re-specked and it was going to be right in front of the center channel. So 1 change order later the speaker is removed and a new one contracted. The rear surround were installed per spec then the wife tells us they can't go there because of artwork. Another change order.

The worst part is their constant questioning about every piece and coponent in the system. They even wanted to know if the wire we used was any good.

The good news is we charged enough for the job, we think. Time will tell.

Just think if it wasn't for clients we wouldn't have anything to do.

oex,

Might have to get that engraved & hung on the wall!

tgav8rs
I would have said... "OH!! You mean you want GOOD wiring? jeez, we only use crappy wiring"... Why didn't you say so?