Owen, things will be better because we won't have to compete with the IBEW giving equipment away for free. Things will be better because I won't have to put up with BAs hounding me to sign up. Things will be better because we will finally be recognized as a legitimate trade.

Maybe you are already in a union. Maybe you don't have the problems I (and several other have around the country) with unions. I'll give you an example. A friend of mine that owns a security company does business in the city of St. Louis. n St. Louis City you have to have a license to do low voltage, but also install alarms. He was doing an alarm in a new construction house and the H/O asked him to run the phone, TV, and a few data runs. He agreed, and ran Cat5 for the phone and network. When the inspector showed up my friend was still on the job, and was asked what the difference was between the blue Cat5 and the white. He told him the blue was for networking. At this point the inspector flipped, and chewed my buddy out. It seems that the IBEW convinced the Electrical Board to change the ordinance the cover low voltage. Only a licensed electrical company could run data cabling.

On QQQ's thread a while back people talked about licensing and certification. My objection to licensing is that there needs to be a separate board of review selected from within the industry. I don't want an electrician telling me how (or how not) to run wire, install keypads, terminate cable, etc. I would be willing to listen to someone that was in the field and experienced the same situations as me.

My company does not have problems with unions here because we only do small builder work. The unions are currently only focused on larger projects.

I'm not profoundly anti-union, but the only one I've ever belonged to (UAW) did nothing for me, nothing at all, except take dues. Oh, and call me on election day to tell me how to vote.

You will need to adhere to the NEC for running wiring, that's a given. The NEC is written by electricians, and interpreted in the field by inspectors who ought to be electricians, except in St. Louis. If you want people to leave this industry alone (trunk slammers out, good people in, quality jobs, profit to make a living with) we need to do high quality work to a single definable standard. That would be the NEC.

I'm for liscencing, provided it is set up in a way to allow you and I fair access to the training and testing. Unions will fight that, because access to the testing and certification by non-union people works against them. We just need to win that fight.

rhm9

Remember the early days of car stereo installations. Everybody was selling, like a KP500 & pair of 6x9's for the rear, and 5 1/4's for the front. Everybody in town charged $120 to install... Then the "whores" entered the market... "Hey Everybody FREE installation". They tried to make up the difference on mass volume.
Just what we don't need in this industry!

Owen, you and I are closer than you think. I am not anti-union, but I am pro work as you choose. If I choose not to be in the union and you do, don't take work away from me or make it difficult for me to work.

My brother-in-law was a union carpenter. Even after being in for 20 years, they still made him go down once a year for a skills refresher course. As pro-union as he is, he admitted to me the only reason he stayed in so long was because of the health insurance.

I adhere to the NEC, and am glad when I have a standard I can go back to. I don't like the fact that in St. Louis City and St. Louis County (yes, they are 2 seperate governmental entities) I have to take a test compiled by electricians, and go before a board of electricians to get a license. They set the rules so broad that even sprinkler guys have to have a Communication License to work. The funny thing is that Charter is the biggest violator and nothing is every said or done.

But anyway, I agree that a Board without union influence that sets up training and testing is the best way to go. But I also know that IBEW Local #1 will NEVER allow that to happen here.

True, true.

I don't disagree with you, and hope I didn't come off badly. Would it be fair to say that you don't want licensing because of the electrician overview? I do want licensing, and am willing to put up with the electrician overview. We are quite close on this one.

My wife's family is from Alton, on the Illinios side of the river. They want to take me to the Budwiswer (sp?) tour. Will I need a designated driver after we're done? :-)

I am all for licensing because it will weed out the idiots that are out there right now, and bring some professionalism to the trade. If I have to live with the electrical review for the good that the licensing will bring, that is a trade off I am willing to make. I would at least like someone from our industry to be on the board, but I doubt that will ever happen.

The AB tour is awesome. Just the amount of beer created in one day is staggering, and the Clydesdales are incredible. I used to go every year on my birthday and learned something new every time. BUT you only get 2 samples at the end of the tour. Now the great thing is that you get samples of everything. I would suggest the Anheuser World Select (not to be confused with Bud Select). I am sure they will, but have them take you to Fast Eddies Bon Aire. It is the bar in the Toby Keith video. Cheap food, VERY cold beer. And of course we have the Arch.

And we have The Bean.

The only brewery in town is Goose Island, great beer, no tours.

Sorry, I missed that one. What is "The Bean?" I lived in Chicago for 2 years, but I never heard of The Bean.

A new sculpture in the new Millenium Park. It looks like a giant alien did a nasty thing in the park, kinda. Actually it is a very cool sculpture, and people enjoy it. I was looking down on it last summer from a Michigan Ave. high rise, and it looks great.

[Link: acclaimimages.com]

Okay, I know what you are talking about now. We were up there just before Easter and saw that. A few years ago you had the cows. I loved those. They should do that again. See that is why Chicago is so much better than St. Louis.

And all tis time I thought it was because of the Cubs and Bears! :-}

Charter is a utility and not required to follow NEC, just like Ameren. and AT&T (SWB). THey are not required to get permits or inspections.

Were we at the same house? I walked into a model home worth 2.3mil and that's what I found in the mechnical room. Wire nutted phones and data terminated in a small 12" alarm enclosure.

In addition, while I indicated that I work with electricians to do my wire pulling they won't work for free. The owner is in business to make money not feed some union mandate of trying to put other people out of business. I also know the guys working for him won't work for free either. That would be funny to watch, some union stooge trying to get the electricians to work for free. They'd rather be polishing their Harleys than installing structured wiring.

Not a huge football fan, but I have been to a Bears game in December. Not my fondest memory of Chicago.

Now on the other hand, I lived less than 10 blocks from Wrigley and never went to a game. The Cubs will be in town this weekend. I love it when Cub fans come down here and get all excited when they are winning. I simply point to the outfield and all the flags we have hanging there (those would be all the times we have been National Leage or World Champs) and ask them how many are in Wrigley. Hope we sweep them.

That is probably why the inspectors hate them so much. If this is true, this is BS because I am constantly being told by AT&T and CenturyTel guys how I should be running my wires.