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The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:
| Topic: | Supporting in-wall/ceiling speakers in lathe & plaster? This thread has 28 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 29. |
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| Post 16 made on Thursday May 18, 2006 at 20:05 |
ceied Loyal Member |
Joined:
Posts: | February 2002
5,753 |
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we did a house in chicago with cement, plaster and steel mesh. it took 4 hours per hole. when completed i never heard such great sound from an in ceiling, man did they sound awsome. ( customers, not mine) my house has same but ceiling are lower.
we burned thru about 50 carbide jib saw bladed, 20 sawzall demo blades adn about 40 roto zip bits..... needless to say we lost our ass on this house cuz we fgured 1 hour per hole. and only a hand full of bits and blades.
ed
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Ed will be known as the Tiger Woods of the integration business, followed closely with the renaming of his company to "Hotties A/V". The tag line will be "We like big racks and tight holes"... |
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| Post 17 made on Friday May 19, 2006 at 02:25 |
Ernie Bornn-Gilman Yes, That Ernie! |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2001
30,104 |
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On May 18, 2006 at 19:19, netarc said...
Hmmm...the more I read about this, the more a
PITB it's sounding like - and the comments about
how easy it is to damage the rest of the ceiling
(and the ceiling coming down!) ... well, I'm not
really filled with confidence at this, now ;) This comment shows that you truly understand. Mr. Stanley's post right after yours is another perfect way to do this. Do not ignore the time he predicts! The first time I did this kind of work, the man I was working for told the client that in walls like this, there is often more mess than hole when we are finished, and patching is just part of the job. This guy, although a TV exec, had installed his own Panasonic phone system in the two-story house the year before, so he had some experience with the walls blowing up as well as falling apart on him.
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A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw |
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| Post 18 made on Friday May 19, 2006 at 02:41 |
Mr. Stanley Elite Member |
Joined:
Posts: | January 2006
16,954 |
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On May 18, 2006 at 20:05, ceied said...
we did a house in chicago with cement, plaster
and steel mesh. it took 4 hours per hole. needless to say we lost our ass on this house
cuz we fgured 1 hour per hole. and only a hand
full of bits and blades.
ed Yeah, actually, one of the last lath & plaster jobs I did was (of course) - a friend's house. His wife had really bad dust allergies... I think she hates me now... It did take a lot longer than an hour per hole, now that I think of it... It sucked!!!
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"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
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| Post 19 made on Friday May 19, 2006 at 03:11 |
Jay In Chicago Founding Member |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2001
1,658 |
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9.5 times out of ten I do perfectly with a sawzawl on high with a plaster blade moving slow.
BTW.. my favorite and only brand to buy are the Ugly blades... damn they're good!
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Jet Rack ... It's what's for breakfast |
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| Post 20 made on Friday May 19, 2006 at 09:02 |
johndn Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | October 2005
67 |
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On May 18, 2006 at 19:19, netarc said...
What if we scrap the in-ceilings, then, and
use ON-walls (bipole, not dipole) that are hanging
off the ceiling ... what do folks think of that
approach? You will be able to: 1) purchase far better speakers (surrounds vs. in-ceiling); and, 2) obtain far better speaker placement (sound pointing down is about the worst option available...the human ear is funny for sound emanating from the rear hemisphere...just because the sound is emitted does not mean it will reach the ear, or process it correctly). Cheers.
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| OP | Post 21 made on Friday May 19, 2006 at 13:04 |
netarc Senior Member |
Joined:
Posts: | May 2004
1,348 |
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On May 19, 2006 at 09:02, johndn said...
You will be able to:
1) purchase far better speakers (surrounds vs.
in-ceiling); and,
2) obtain far better speaker placement (sound
pointing down is about the worst option available...the
human ear is funny for sound emanating from the
rear hemisphere...just because the sound is emitted
does not mean it will reach the ear, or process
it correctly).
Just to elaborate - since the ceiling slopes up at an approx 35 degree angle, my thinking now is to place surface-mount speakers on the ceiling (with extra reinforcement behind, naturally ... perhaps figure a way to secure the speaker to a ceiling joist, ideally). Said speakers would be just behind/over the main seating area, effectively pointing out and into the middle of the room. In the past I would have used Mirage's Omni FX speakers for this application (great little ambient effects speaker, given that omniguide module), but Mirage in their infinite wisdom has discontinued this ... blech. I don't think placing typical dipole/bipole FX speakers here will work well ... any suggestions for other speakers that might work? EDIT: took a look at Mirage's site, and one possible solution could be to use their OmniSat v2 speakers, mounted upside down, in this position ... thoughts? 
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| Post 22 made on Friday May 19, 2006 at 14:40 |
davidcasemore Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | January 2003
3,352 |
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On May 18, 2006 at 18:27, Ernie Bornn-Gilman said...
Lath.
First, are you talking about lath and plaster?
That consists of 1/4" x 1 1/2" wood laths nailed
to the studs or joists with about 1/4" spacing
between adjacent laths. Plaster is then smeared
over this, and the plaster that oozes through
the opening locks the plaster in place. I've
seen steel mesh or small-holed chicken wire (about
5/8" across the hole) in different installations.
And I have seen various types of wallboard referred
to as lath and plaster, which they aren't. That's
why I ask. Actually, after the use of wood lath the plastering industry went to Rock Lath. This material resembled drywall but was made in 48" by 16" sheets. After the sheets of lath were nailed up they would apply the first "scratch" coat, same as on wood lath. Then, after that hardened, they would apply the 2nd layer, the white finish coat. Again, just like with wood lath. Wet plaster today (if you can find anybody that still does it) goes on with the same two coats but is now done on top of 4x8, 4x12 or 4x16 sheets of 1/2" Blue Board (a water resistant drywall) First, consider the lath. It is nailed to studs
at both sides of the stud bay. You want to FIRST
cut through the wall and through the lath on the
side of your prospective hole that is further
away from a stud. For instance, there is usually
14" between studs (if there is lath and plaster,
the wood might be a real 2" thick). If you have
an 8" hole laid out at the left edge of the stud
bay, the right edge of the hole will be 6" from
the right stud.
Cut the right side first, because it is supported
by both studs, even though one is 6" away and
one is 8" away. After you have done the right
side, you can do the left. You want to do this
because if you cut the left one first, you then
have 14" of lath that is supported 6" away from
where you want to cut. When you start to cut,
that piece of lath will flop all over the place,
often breaking the plaster where you don't want
it broken.
But before doing that, I have figured out where
the studs are and drawn a circle in pencil. I
then go around the perimeter with a 1/2" wide
wood chisel that is now hopelessly dull for anything
but this, and I chip at the top layer of plaster.
This provides a "break line" that encourages,
but does not guarantee, that if the plaster breaks,
it will break along this line. This also helps
me get a feel for the plaster, as to whether it
is hard as steel, has voids, has weak spots, is
soft, etc; that helps me adjust the speed with
which I cut. By hand. I have always used this same method (for over 30 years now). One thing I do is to first chip out a 1" or 2" hole in the very center of the cut out, all the way to the lath. Any plaster that wants to crack will CRACK TOWARDS THE HOLE and not the other direction. The other guys have all the other details down.
I personally don't use a rotozip because it sprays
very fine dust over about a square mile, even
if nicely covered.
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Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time! |
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| Post 23 made on Friday May 19, 2006 at 19:10 |
stereoguy823 Advanced Member |
Joined:
Posts: | February 2005
885 |
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On May 18, 2006 at 19:12, netarc said...
"stitch-drill"? Come on, have you not heard of that? When you run the bit in and out of the wood like a sewing machine needle, except slower and with more care.
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Sticking to what I'm good at. |
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| Post 24 made on Friday May 19, 2006 at 23:17 |
Ernie Bornn-Gilman Yes, That Ernie! |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2001
30,104 |
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On May 19, 2006 at 14:40, davidcasemore said...
Actually, after the use of wood lath the plastering
industry went to Rock Lath. This material resembled
drywall but was made in 48" by 16" sheets. After
the sheets of lath were nailed up they would apply
the first "scratch" coat, same as on wood lath.... Is this method also called Lath and Plaster, which is why a) some people call construction without wood "lath and plaster" b) I remember ads for buildings being made with "lath and plaster" even though I am not 80 years old? When did they change to the lath board method?
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A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw |
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| Post 25 made on Saturday May 20, 2006 at 08:08 |
djnorm Founding Member |
Joined:
Posts: | January 2002
1,693 |
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Whenever they built the sub-divisions in Roslyn. Every one I've been in has that sheetrock with holes every 18" and a layer of plaster. Haven't ever seen it anywhere else.
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| Post 26 made on Saturday May 20, 2006 at 08:47 |
The Lizardking Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | September 2004
355 |
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Did a 100 year old house in Highland Park, IL with this nonsense and went thru 25 sawzall blades, about 5 per hole, and the chunks that came out were about 3-4 inches thick and weighed in at about 25 lbs each. Oh ya that stuff is sweet!
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I am the lizardking I can do anything |
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| Post 27 made on Saturday May 20, 2006 at 09:00 |
Wire Nuts Active Member |
Joined:
Posts: | June 2005
611 |
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On May 19, 2006 at 23:17, Ernie Bornn-Gilman said...
Is this method also called Lath and Plaster, which
is why
a) some people call construction without wood
"lath and plaster"
b) I remember ads for buildings being made with
"lath and plaster" even though I am not 80 years
old?
When did they change to the lath board method? I believe they started using it in the 50's. I have run into a few house like this as well as the old lath strips with the plaster. I try to avoid houses with either style. To me, just nothing but headaches.
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| Post 28 made on Saturday May 20, 2006 at 14:39 |
davidcasemore Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | January 2003
3,352 |
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On May 20, 2006 at 09:00, Wire Nuts said...
I believe they started using it in the 50's.
I have run into a few house like this as well
as the old lath strips with the plaster. I try
to avoid houses with either style. To me, just
nothing but headaches. The rock lath goes back to the 40's and if I have to work with real plaster I'd rather work with rock lath, any day, over having to work with wood lath. On older houses with wood lath it was very common for the plasterer to mix horse hair with the first (scratch) coat of plaster. The worst thing you can run into is an old wood lath job that was badly done. Usually on small tract houses, not on large custom homes with sometimes have flawless plastering work. If you walk into an old house, and if you can actually see the outlines of the wood lath strips while looking down the length of a wall or across a ceiling, you can be sure that large chunks of plaster will fall out when you try to cut in speakers or wall plates. If you can see, or feel (by running your hand up and down the wall), the strips of lath, it's because the plasterer scrimped on plaster and put it on really thin. All I can say is "good luck!"
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Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time! |
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| Post 29 made on Saturday May 20, 2006 at 19:32 |
Ernie Bornn-Gilman Yes, That Ernie! |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2001
30,104 |
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On May 20, 2006 at 14:39, davidcasemore said...
If you can actually see the
outlines of the wood lath strips while looking
down the length of a wall or across a ceiling,
you can be sure that large chunks of plaster will
fall out when you try to cut in speakers or wall
plates because the plasterer scrimped on plaster
and put it on really thin. All I can say is "good
luck!" Wow, that is something I had not expected AT ALL. Thank you so much. This stuff is difficult enough that I'd hate to not notice that before estimating the install time.
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A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw |
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