You are correct, there is no comparison...in your mind. Do the test blind and you'll never know the difference. And yes, I've heard very exotic systems too. And I've also done the tests with people such as yourself that are convinced you hear such differences. The moment the test is done blind and you don't know which one you are listening to you can't tell the difference.

It is possible to hear a "difference" in higher priced wire. Many manufacturers add components to tweak freq response to make sure you hear a "difference". This is NOT an improvement. If you like bass you should ajust your receiver not buy expensive cables.

Maybe, it happened by accident. Newbie wire monkey ran cat to the surrounds because it happened to be the same color as 2 cond audio that day. Didn't find it 'til trim. Homeowner asked and I told him it was the newest line of speaker wire having the best qualities of stranded and solid conductors and each strand was individually insulated so it HAD to be better. He absolutely raved about his system. Dear Lord, I am truly sorry..........

And we wonder why the public views this industry as less than professional? The fact that you didn't own up to the issue, and were willing to BS the customer is an example of the kind of thing that happens so often in this industry!

And the fact that the kid couldn't tell the difference is a little scary too. He should have been working for the cable company.

This is ridiculous.......................... I need a beer............Anyone want to join me?

I am, in spirit at least.

Lighten up Francis. The point is that it didn't make a difference and if you had the knowledge and equipment you could measure it yourself and avoid saying stupid things. Ask yourself why a signal can easily travel on a 5 mil metal trace on a circuit board, but suddenly needs heavy gauge wire once it leaves the box. And don't say distance. What I told that guy was every bit as valid as what Monster claims. Get back to me when you actually know what you're talking about.

Not to say that the copper could not carry a signal, of course it could.



The problem is an ethical one. When asked about it you make up a lie.
Do you actually feel that was the right way to handle it?

Get off your high horse, Sound Man. It was just supposed to be a funny story. This actually happened before CEDIA even existed (anybody remember HabiTech?). My business runs quite differently now. Our contract at the time simply stated pre-wire for surround sound with no mention of wire type. What should I have told the guy? You can't have speakers, but I can put phones in your walls? The fact is we installed, calibrated, and measured the system, and it performed as advertised. He was delighted. As far as my story about the wire is concerned, to call me a liar you must first prove that my claims are false which you have already admitted you can't do. As I said before, what I said was not nearly as outlandish as most of the claims made by the wire manufacturers themselves which I'm sure you perpetuate through your ignorance. So, legally, morally, and ethically I think it's OK. Take it in the spirit it was intented, which is to poke fun at high end speaker wire and not a plot to undermine the low voltage industry.

I do know exactly what I'm talking about. And yes, the answer is distance! Well... that and the fact that a 5 mil 1oz copper trace won't handle 100W at any distance. And you're trying to defend yourself by saying what you do is as valid as Monster's claims!

For your information I fully understand the issues. I'm able to derive the wave equations from Maxwells equations, fully understand skin effect, and understand that it means nothing on speaker cable. I also understand that with speaker wire the total gauge of the wire is what is important.

I've had too many "professionals" try to BS me with the kind of Cr#% you were able to feed this guy. I've even taken one to court and won.

The best practice when a mistake is made, is to own up to it, and then sell the customer on a practical solution. I can only hope that BS'ing your way out of these situations will blow up in your face really soon.

Too bad you had to lie to him. If you had stopped to think about what you had done, you could have told him the truth and you would have had a reason for it to sound good. Not a lie.


This is a laughable thing to say in any argument. It says you loudly acknowledge you fed the guy a line of Bull&h*t.


He does.


Yeah, don't forget the facts.


As for the facts that I allude to: your guy installed CAT5 by mistake. But when you hooked it up, you used all four pairs, meaning you had four times the wire that is in a CAT5 pair.

A 24 gauge wire has an area in circular mils of 404. Four of those would be 1616 CM. It happens that 18 gauge wire has a CMA of 1620. You could have very honestly said that a mistake was made, but fortunately you are able to hook it up in a way that the wire is effectively 18 gauge.

The closest you would have to get to lying would be to point out that, since hardly any bass is sent to the rear channels, a lighter gauge wire is acceptable. Gong on, you don't like it as much as using heavier gauge wire, but you are being picky and theoretical, and the speakers will perform well.

You didn't have to make up a story, but you didn't know enough about the materials you were using to know that.

You had installers who used category FIVE utp as "grab and go" wire before CEDIA existed??
I am starting to smell something...


I'll give it a shot... In 1989 (which was when CEDIA was founded) Category THREE UTP cable hadn't been invented yet... Silver satin flat four strand was the telecom wire of the day, and the specialized network guys were using mini-coax terminated with BNC (and definitely not in residential applications).

When Category 3 was invented in 1990, it was such a limited application cable that it would have been prohibitively expensive to just leave laying around for a moron installer to use for speaker wire.


Or as a total bullshit story... Hey, maybe you can get on Oprah's book club!!

Back to the original topic...
Ed,
Your reputation and the reason this person likely hired you was because of the quality of your work and your dedication to stick to the best practices like not skimping on wire.
Maybe take a room or two off the system, step some non-critical rooms down to a more basic speaker, and/or go down to a 30W amp as a previous poster recommended.

IMO, the way the work is done should not be compromised because the budget is compromised.

Where's your proof of this? What would happen? Will the metal melt? You really don't know do you? What you said is just not true, of coarse, you don't consider it a lie, because you BELIEVE it to be true. Ignorance is bliss.

Exactly which part was untrue? Can you prove it?



Exactly the calculation I used.

What's bass got to do with it? Are you saying that bass mysteriously needs heavier gauge wire? Up to what frequency? How much current does the wire need to carry? What will happen if the wire is not a sufficient gauge? Will it melt? What you have said is, in fact, not true which would make it a lie. I'm sure you believe it is true, so I guess that makes it OK. It's interesting to see you guys argue to some consensus and then decide that that is the absolute truth.