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Topic:
difference between audio and video baluns
This thread has 16 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Monday March 20, 2006 at 15:48
tweetymp4
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I know baluns have been discussed ad-nausem on this site but one thing I never picked up reading them all is the difference between baluns sold to carry composite audio and baluns sold to carry Audio.

Let me be more specific:

Muxlab sells baluns with two screw connections specifically to carry composite video, or one of the componets in a component video connection. they then sell another item that is designed to carry one channel of analog audio (like the right channel from a cable box). They of course look identical from the outside, but how do they varry on the inside? I guess my theory is that you could use (and many of us do) rg59 with rca connections interchangably to carry these signals. So wouldn't the baluns be the same also?

There were several "lurkers" on this post with great insight on the inner working of baluns.....curious what anyone knows.

I'm sure I could just plug em in and see what I get, I just would love to know more.

Last edited by tweetymp4 on March 20, 2006 15:56.
I'm Not an engineer, but I play one on TV.
My handle is Tweety but I have nothing to do with the organization of similar name. I just had a really big head as a child so folks called me tweety bird.
Post 2 made on Monday March 20, 2006 at 15:53
ceied
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hmmmm.....good question. my guess is they are the same but hopefully we will find out.

ed
Ed will be known as the Tiger Woods of the integration business, followed closely with the renaming of his company to "Hotties A/V". The tag line will be "We like big racks and tight holes"...
Post 3 made on Monday March 20, 2006 at 16:31
bcf1963
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The difference is the impedance of the two systems.

The audio is 50 ohm, while the video is 75 ohm. If you use a balun with the wrong characteristic impedance, you'll get reflections of the signal on the cable. Using the wrong balun may have very little effect on short runs, but long runs will definitely start showing issues.

In analog video this shows up as ghosting. In digital video, it degrades signal to noise, and can result in total loss of picture, or just increased error rate which shows up as pixelation.

In analog audio the mismatch can result in low level hum or echo, while digital audio will increase the error rate, resulting in less definition.
Post 4 made on Monday March 20, 2006 at 16:42
ceied
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ok so is it cool to use 75ohm for audio? what happens there? i by accident in my youth used a 50 ohm audio cable on compostit video....man was it ugly

ed
Ed will be known as the Tiger Woods of the integration business, followed closely with the renaming of his company to "Hotties A/V". The tag line will be "We like big racks and tight holes"...
Post 5 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 01:11
bcf1963
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On March 20, 2006 at 16:42, ceied said...
ok so is it cool to use 75ohm for audio?

No. Using the wrong impedance will result in creating an impedance mismatch. Using a 75 ohm cable for audio (which is meant to be 50 ohm) will result in the amplitude of the signal being increased by 50%. This can cause clipping in the line level audio amplifier stages. At the very least, this causes impedance mismatch, which will result in some amount of reflection on the coax. Result... bad sound!

what
happens there? i by accident in my youth used
a 50 ohm audio cable on compostit video....man
was it ugly

ed
Post 6 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 07:01
ridebmx69
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So if audio is meant to be passed on 75 ohm cable and video is meant for 50 ohm, which one are you affecting when using that RG59 x 5 cable for component vid/audio runs? I thought RG6 = 75 ohms and RG59 = 50 ohms but I may be wrong. I have used Comscope's 59 x 5 where they have a Green, Blue, Red, Black w/ red stripe, and a Black w/ white stripe. Now that cries out component video + audio to me. Is it wrong to use those for either audio or video? I hope my ? makes cents - Thanks
Post 7 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 08:09
Wire Nuts
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Interesting points. I have used MuxLabs quad video baluns to send L-R audio and video to a remote location, and it seems to work fine. Are you saying that there are resistors inside of these baluns? I thought they were just "pass through" baluns? (used to insert audio and video onto tp)
OP | Post 8 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 15:17
tweetymp4
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All good points, all lead to my original question. I have always erred on the side of caution on this issue and ordered the appropriate balun for the job. I does make me wonder if I am using the wrong wire (59 or 6) for audio and video runs.

Ernie, you out there?
I'm Not an engineer, but I play one on TV.
My handle is Tweety but I have nothing to do with the organization of similar name. I just had a really big head as a child so folks called me tweety bird.
Post 9 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 15:36
ceied
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ok i called gepco and they said the following... its ok to use 75ohm cables on audio and video. just cant use 50 ohm for video. digital coax must be 75 ohm and thats an audio. signal.... then there is the whole 110ohm thing but thats another story.

ed
Ed will be known as the Tiger Woods of the integration business, followed closely with the renaming of his company to "Hotties A/V". The tag line will be "We like big racks and tight holes"...
OP | Post 10 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 17:02
tweetymp4
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so is rg6 75ohm and rg59 50ohm.

Somehow I thought it was the other way around, or they were both 75ohm

Wait a minute, the rg59 that I am using as interconnect says 75ohm on the jacket
I'm Not an engineer, but I play one on TV.
My handle is Tweety but I have nothing to do with the organization of similar name. I just had a really big head as a child so folks called me tweety bird.
Post 11 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 17:07
ceied
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59 and 6 are both 75 ohm cables along with 59quad and 6quad....... you have to do 50 ohm with a different coax or twisted pair from what i remember...where the hell is a wire manufacturer on this site when you need one

ed
Ed will be known as the Tiger Woods of the integration business, followed closely with the renaming of his company to "Hotties A/V". The tag line will be "We like big racks and tight holes"...
Post 12 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 17:33
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
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Yes, RG6 adn RG59 are both 75 ohm cables.

bcf, the MuxLab web site says the audio part of a 500001 is 600 ohms, but that doesn't tell the whole story.

Video has high frequency components to it. Whenever you run a signal on a wire for more than about a quarter-wavelength of distance, the impedance of the source, the wire, and the load come into play. For full transfer of power (note we are talking power here), all three impedances should be the same. If the impedances differ, signal gets reflected back, which results in lower output as well as ghosts from signals that reflect back to the beginning, then back to the other end...attenuating as they go, but still able to mess up the picture.

Audio used to be treated the same way, that is, dealing with power, back when Western Electric was making audio equipment. Audio stuff had outputs with 500 or 600 ohm impedances, and the loads at the other end were supposed to be the same. Reflections were much less of a problem because the wire would have to be miles and miles long to hear the effect.

Anyway, by at least the 1940s, it had occurred to someone that audio never went anywhere near a quarter-wavelength (which would be about 4 km at 20 kHz, the shortest audio wavelength), so maybe we could do it a different way...if the source had a low impedance and the load had a high impedance, then

the actual resistance of the wire would have less effect

you could actually run a few amps from one output without lowering the volume

input transformers could be done away with, as tube circuits have pretty high input impedance.

and it pretty much stayed that way. It is still typical for audio outputs to have output impedances in the range of a kilohm, but amps to have input impedances in the range of 10 to 50 kilohm. If you have ever y-connected a preamp's output without the volume dropping, you are dealing with this kind of system.

That means the impedance of the wire doesn't matter at all for audio.

Backing up a bit, if the preamp had a 1000 ohm output and you fed it to a 500 ohm load, the voltage would drop to one-third, about 5 dB down. Since that does not happen when you run signals through 500 ohm baluns, something else is going on. Even though the baluns are specified as 500 ohms, they are acting like they have a much higher impedance as they are not loading down the signal and lowering its level.

But baluns have transformers, and a transformer specified as 500 ohms will look like a much higher impedance if its output is fed to an input with an impedance higher than 500 ohms. It is then more important to look at the turns ratio between the primary and the secondary than just the impedance itself. Since we are not using baluns to try to multiply or divide the signal voltage, they are likely 1:1, that is, the primary and secondary have the same number of windings. A nominally 500 ohm transformer with a turns ratio of 1:1, connected to an amp with a 10K ohms input impedance will look like 10K!

Last edited by Ernie Bornn-Gilman on March 21, 2006 17:51.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 13 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 17:40
ceied
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ernie, do people call you rainman? just wondering..... your like the encyclopedia britanica for god sake (little g).

ed
Ed will be known as the Tiger Woods of the integration business, followed closely with the renaming of his company to "Hotties A/V". The tag line will be "We like big racks and tight holes"...
Post 14 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 17:42
Brentm
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On March 21, 2006 at 17:07, ceied said...

the hell is a wire manufacturer on this site when
you need one

ed

Sorry: Following other threads.

I will go with Ernie on this one.
Audio is very forgiving about impedence, Video is not.
Baluns in use for lower rez. composite video (CCTV) work okay.
However when used for component video skew becomes an issue.
In order to get a soild RGB picture you must equalise for the different twist rates and most likly amp. the signal as well.
Cheap baluns are not active, active baluns are not cheap.

Last edited by Brentm on March 21, 2006 18:51.
Brent McCall
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Ethereal (386) 846-7264 Cell
Post 15 made on Tuesday March 21, 2006 at 17:52
Ernie Bornn-Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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some day i will capitalize like ceied and be succinct like brentm

until then, watch out
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
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