I wanted to get everyones opinions on what they would use on this customer that just contacted me. She owns a small bar/pool hall and is wanting to put a sound system in it before she opens. What kind of setup would yall offer her. I know its kind of vague but thats really about it. It is about 3000 sp ft. in size.

Ericstac, Couple of key questions, What's the budget? Restaraunts, and bars are usually low. How loud should the system get? Beyond that what I have done in the past is mount speakers,( bookshelf type )along the walls opposite each other. At least 2 pair. Something with decent bass response. Run good wire at least 14/2. If the ceilings are high.. Then get you a reliable high end reciever.Add a speaker selector, or impedence mathing volume control. Run all speakers into device I prefer V.C. (set reciver volume not to blow speakers) rip off knob?? hook up sources, and presto. I have done this in the past in a trendy furniture/antique store with 2 pair of Jamo68's (a moment of silence) and a Sony ES stereo reciever, and cheap 25 disc. It fit their budget and really rocked in a 6000 sq. ft space. More would be better, but will she buy it? Again the budget thing. Avgenius, my lead installer, was a little cynical at my response to this answer. So in advance guys, yes he should use commercial gear, and big speakers and subs. But will he get the job, and whats the mood of this place. Your right, it's too vague. But the system i'm quoting he might actually get..

This message was edited by THXRick on 10/18/02 20:15.50.

Recently fixed a sports bar and grill. Well I put a big bandaid on it because the owner was too cheap. (I'll never do that again)
My experience was bad partially due to my lack of experience with a commercial atmosphere of this type and because the client was dishonest about what he wanted out of the system.
My advice is to use sommercial grade gear. After alot of research I'd use audio control amps on each pair of JBL studios and on each JBL sub. Reasonably priced and the specs are great.
You just never know if this bar and pool hall may be just that by day, and maybe club by night. That was the case with my experience. And I didn't find that out until I was replacing existing gear with my "recommendation".
This sports bar was 3k sq. ft. so if your interested email me and I'll fax you a copy of the equip. list recommeded by JBL and ADI system support.
Hope this helps.
CMack

Cmack I emailed you,
I got her end of project goals lastnight to help me get a better understanding of what she wants. She currently has two speakers in the joint now (i'll see for sure Sunday when i go see the place) and by thursday she wants the necessary equipment to have the speakers up and running and then we will upgrade from there bi-weekly with the project ending with a multi-zone system for playing reagular old pool hall tyoe atmosphere to a rockng joint with a live band connection feed setup.. this is going to be a learning experience...
which luckily she knows...

Sounds like you are basically on a great track, since you can start at point A and then improve it. This gives her the ability to see that the small amount of money she wants to spend now will not do it, and the time to increase her budget.

i recommend against feeding a live band connection into the system. You could have a GREAT system that will be reduced to shredded cones if the console volume is up a bit too much and someone just TWANGS a string...live music speakers are built to deal with transients way in excess of what regular audio, even commercial, are built to deal with. Plus, you will have no control over the grounding of various band systems, so sooner or later you will have to solve a horrendous hum problem between Friday at 6:30 and showtime (been there).

I recommend that you look seriously into 70 volt speakers, volume controls and amps. With 70 volts, you can add a speaker any time without having to rewire the whole mess to maintain an impedance level. Also, if you stick with 8 ohm jobbies, you will have to have an amp channel for every two (more or less) speakers, or you will end up lowering the amount of power that goes to the speakers by using impedance matching volume controls. Actually, I just ran into this in a house ( ! ) where there are ten pairs of speakers in different rooms and outdoors; we used the impedance matching approach and we now have to change the impedance taps and use three amps to get them the volume they want...turns out we could have done this without impedance matchers if we had just specced ten channels of amplification to begin with.

o yeh, another thing -- the furniture store is not a fair comparison. I bet it never has 85 dB of ambient noise from people talking trash, playing pool, yelling, having a good time, etc, that the music has to play over. And when the music comes on, people talk louder, so your system will probably want to be able to do 95 to 100 dB!

Ernie is on track, DO NOT SELL STERIO!!!!!!
No point at all, how will you deal with left and right separation? Selling low end sterio receivers and speakers is a sure way of going back. They cannot handle varing impedance.
Run 70 volt and sleep at night. If you want to feed a live sound into the system make sure you have a limiter installed and use another main speaker/amp set-up for the live music "flown" with subs in front of the stage.
I have done this exact application before and believe me I have learnt all the lessons.

70 Volt Amen!!
There are several 70V systems that actually sound pretty good. JBL,POSH,etc.
Also with the live band feed you will have serious time delay problems as well as others listed above.
If you wish to avoid the 70V system, I would suggest compact PA gear which could be hung most anywhere needed. If you wire it correctly you could have zone control as well.
Good Luck!

Did I not say, How much ? ?? and how loud ??? Thougt I covered that guys.. As for the furniture store I was able to produce easily 100DB in a 6000 sq. foot space. Of course they never play it that loud. And i did ask about the atmosphere of the place (Live Bands)?? didnt say that ericstac.As for 70 Volt I have never seen any capable of really loud volumes, I know the principals more speakers , more speakers, better coverage. As for imaging problems true of course my little furniture store 6000' with 20' ceilings had basically a box shape so one pair on each side did the trick. But have done a 3000' strip club with commercial gear.While also changing from mono to stereo.. Man what a diffrence in sound.. In the future i will be sure to be very specific on this site as not to get nailed. Thanks Guys .. Oh i would like to also say like geraldb p.a. try to avoid 70 volt.

Sorry if it felt like you were getting nailed. If you search these forums for "soap box," you will see where I have gotten up on my soap box and said repeatedly, please let us know more details so we can provide answers.

Does your customer feel "nailed" when you pin them down to what they want so that you can supply it to them? Here we have the disadvantage of not being able to see the site or even talk with you, so details are more important than in other modes of "talking."

THXRick, your volume spec for the furniture store was "and really rocked."

Good quality LOUD 70 volt stuff is out there. I will consult a friend who does clubs and see what he suggests. As for stereo, if you use multiple speakers, stereo is severly compromised, so you might as well go mono. The furniture store is an exception, because that kind of area usually needs more speakers for even coverage.

Feeding live sound into the house sound system is not necessarily a bad thing--IF the system is designed accordingly. Adding a compressor/limiter and a delay before the amp(s) can address problems of overdriving and acoustical alignment, respectively. If properly configured, they ought not to adversely affect playback of prerecorded material. Make sure that these house processors are locked away from "the talent" and any other would-be "tweekers". I installed just such a system in a restaurant.

To address issues of ground loops, you can either: provide a dedicated AC outlet for the bands' PA console that branches off from the same feed that supplies your house equipment (and which ideally runs the same route as the audio feed from the console to the house rig); or you can simply have transformer-coupled inputs to the house system.

This message was edited by M_Bruno on 10/21/02 18:02.17.

THXrick
I feel you are dead wrong about 70 volt systems. I have had great success in all kinds of jobs from bars to airports. Then again I guess that is why I never go back unless they need more.

To twix and geraldb, I have also had great success with 70VOLT systems but it's always been background music. (Docters offices retail spaces etc.) Have even hung outdoor OWI 70Volt in shopping centers.But it's always been to fill in sorta speak, never quality sound.This equipment every one talks about, please fill me in since I'm and old analogue pimp.Sorry inside joke.I'd love to daisy chain speaker runs, Use 70Volt and still maintain high quality sound.What brands do you recommend?? Please reply

So with 70 volt speakers you can daisy chain them all around without any problems?

Correct, just run 16/2 wire from speaker to speaker and loop back to the amp( both ends ) and presto!
Too make it sound good use good quality taps and load your amp to max 60% of it's recommended wattage.
I have used JBL,TOA,RCF etc.. You can run any old speakers you like as long as you install a transformer and match up your power properly.
Ive done a couple of indoor pools at hotels and I can tell you they sounded great and played really loud.
Jbl sats with flown subs and a separate self-powered speaker system for the arobics gym beside with it's own music feed.
I did that job 4 years ago and I have never been called back with problems.
As for a decent line I use TOA because the equipment is well rept in our area and always in stock. You can also get leads from the complany and use the rep to close big accounts like airports etc.. I don't though use alot of their speakers because of price and the ease of mounting but their in walls/ceiling are not too bad.
I used a line/leveler though at all times to maitain my ajustments and the system's integrity
Tomarrow I a using a new unit (line level/limiter with eq etc) that is totally programmed via lap top.