My 2 Cents...
I agree that it's not good to give out prices etc....BUT, any idiot can go online to ANY search engine, and type in the brand name and model# and get our prices (sometimes cheaper). This is not new guys. We deal with a lot of A/D/S in-wall speakers and a client once told us that he could get them cheaper online. My boss told him he was a lier, because my boss was selling them for the cheapest A/D/S would allow him to. I did a little search online and found a company in California that was selling the speakers for about $10 over my bosses cost. The only thing you can do is try to get these companies to stop screwing us over. We contacted A/D/S and supplied them with the web site, and they are hoping to find out who is supplying them with the speakers and put an end to it. Same goes with the Prontos, I can find those online for cheaper than I can buy them for. I bet Philips would try to do something about that if they were notified. The only thing we can do is tell the clients we will not install ANYTHING that we don't supply ourselves. And, if we do install it then there is absolutely NO warrenty. I personally try to do whatever I can for as cheap as I can because I don't make much money at all (especially for living in Massachussetts), so I don't see anything wrong with what Carl is doing as long as he does it himself from start to end.
Just my 2 pennies

Forgive me for intruding here since I'm not a dealer/installer. This just happens to be a subject that hacks me off.

Rant mode on.

I doubt that Philips would do a damn thing. First of all they don't operate through an "authorized dealer" network. They sell to distributors, trying to police distributors would increase costs AND reduce the sales. The "so called" unauthorized sales.

The other side of the coin is the practice of only honoring the warantee if purchased through an authorized dealer. Acoustic Research (one of many possible examples) uses this technique. They do this to supposedly "protect" their authorized dealers. However, AR products can be purchased at HUNDREDS of unauthorized sites all over the net. AR obviously does nothing to stop it. Why? It would reduce sales, and increase costs. Net result is dealers suffer. To make matters even worse, AR doesn't advertise the fact that they won't honor the warantee if purchased through an unauthorized dealer. I.e. no mention is made on their web site. A customer only finds this out when they read the actual warantee card (unlikely) or call for warantee service. Net result - consumer gets nailed and AR saves some money on repairs.

Still other companies (Marantz for example) try to convince you (check the website) that you MUST buy through an authorized dealer for warantee coverage. The actual warantee, however, contains no such provision, and Marantz will honor the warantee regardless of where purchased.

The short version is that economics is a rough beast. Many companies will screw anybody and everybody for the bottom line. Can you spell Enron?

Exit rant mode.

Jim L

I agree with you Jim. I was just pointing out that some companies will try to stop "unauthorized sales". But, I didn't necessarily disagree with people selling stuff cheap. I personally could care less if a client finds something cheaper online. Good for them, they can install it themselves for a lot cheaper than I cost too. The only point I was trying to make with my post was this:
Who cares if people over hear us talking about wholesale prices when they can find it online anyways by doing a simple search. The encounter with the CA company selling A/D/S didn't piss me off near as much as it did my boss. I actually thought it was good in a sense. I told my boss that instead of turning them in, he should just purches speakers from them when A/D/S goes through their shortages (which seems to be all too often)

Sorry to have stirred up such a controversy. Just a few comments:

It isn't disingenuous to buy something with a business license and tax id, if those items are required by a vendor, and you have them (we do at my house.)

Really thought that 'prosumer' was a common enough term for all the folks here to know what the usage was.

Didn't mean to break into your 'pros only' club room, Shoe, but this is the Internet and there is no registration or credential checking for posting on this forum. Seems to me, as long as I am up front about who and what I am, I should be treated with respect until I do something that shows I don't deserve any. Of course, if you think that I am a liar then I guess I have already done that in you mind.

I am happy to, and have, share(d) my professional background and a supplier with y'all. I let everyone know up front that I would be doing the work and didn't even ask a single question involving 'professional' advice.

Some of the pros here have been very gracious, and I thank you for your acceptance and help. Some have been less than gracious, sorry you have taken offense at my being here, my questions, and my responses.

And Ernie Bornn-Gilman, I don't need to look the words up that you suggested, I know what they mean. And I haven't done anything that is remotely disingenuous.

Please accept apologies if I have somehow offended anyone. -Carl

McNasty,

It wasn't a shot at you, just an "in general" rant that trickeled out of the intermission forum. It's a subject that always gets me stirred up. Especially when we start talking about whether warantee follows product. Which it should, but doesn't too many times. I shall now retreat to Pronto forum where I belong.

Jim L

The only thing I am sorry about is that this tread continues. I will never be able to live out the last ten minutes of my life again. These last ten minutes have been some of the most boring moments of my life. It is with great regret that I had any interest in this "I'm bigger now and can argue better than. Does not!.. Does Too!" Style of argument. The bottom line is so simple that I do not even have to reiterate. It's been done over and over already. Now I have to go wash off my eyeballs, sponge the fluid out of my brain, drink a pint, and cry myself to sleep. I have to wake up in the morning and go to CEDIA... Where I'll be with the professionals... And I won't waste another 40 seconds on this subject.

Gee whiz Jay! If you regret wasting 10 min of your life, who do you think is to blame for that?

I remember a time, not so long ago, when you debated such issues passionately. Remember this: [Link: remotecentral.com]? Apparently is wasn't so boring then.

Maybe I'm misreading your intent, but sure sounds condesending to me. If you've now risen above such petty topics, then perhaps you can find some compassion for the many people who still find the debate interesting.

Jim L

Jim,
I didn't take it as a shot at me. I just wanted to make sure you and everyone knew what I meant. And, Damn! You have a good memory to point out one of Jay's posts that is almost 2 years old. You have a good memory. Wish Mine was that good!

It sounds like Jay has a problem with a free market society. We all know what the alternative is. Hey Jay I think they may need a new leader 90 miles south of Key West. I hear he isn't going to be around much longer and you ideas would work well down there. :(

Jim. I take full blame. And don't be mistaken. It's not the argument that I find mind numbing. I am all for it. It's the lacsidasical method of deliverance ... the repetition. And the failure to make points that has me typing this with my head in the oven.
Honestly guys. I am just turning your screws. I know I have been out of it for a while. That's my issue. I still enjoy a regular dose of R.C.com. I will try and be a more regular and thoughtful contributor, but I will say what I have to say.. I don't really hold back too much.
Anybody who knows me knows a sarcastic fool... Who loves life... No more to say.
Jim.. Yes,.. I love that you remembered or at least dug up the post/s. I'm no dictator.. That's for sure. If you want to hear more sarcasm. Search me until the beginning of time... Or not. Anyway. Lighten up... just trying to insert a little levity to a rather ahem.. Stale posting. IMOHO... And yes.. That is the very first time I've EVER said IMOHO...

So Jim.. Who were you 2 years ago? Are you in the R.C. Protection plan, or just writing under different personalities?

Anyway.. It's good to hear the knife of self protection swiping past me. That's passion.. That's good.

See ya at Cedia.. Where we'll only discuss good chili recipes and the best setting jig to catch a R.C. poster on. Well, jab away. Sorry to shock ya Jim.. I know some people know me better. That's what happens when your away so long. I'll not come out of nowhere with my arm flailing next time. Did Daniel say he'll be at Cedia? I'd like to buy him a drink.

Well, I'm in that link too, I was Jim L then and I'm Jim L now. Only the bomb was added. Course back then we weren't registered and there were no profiles.

Guess I did misinterpret your intent. It appeared to me as though you "considered yourself above the fray". I knew that you held strong views and was suprized at your post. Again, it appeared to me as though you thought we were children having an argument about nonsense and that the answer was so simple that you couldn't bring yourself to give it to us. Not the first time I've gotten it wrong and won't be the last. As the President's point men used to say, mistakes were made. Perhaps the most interesting thing about this is the absolutely crazy stuff that our brains choose to remember, little things that stay with us. Go figure.

Hope you do become more active around here again. Your viewpoint was always interesting, and your humor appreciated. Peace.

Jim L

I agree with Jim, and will also add informative.

Just like to take this opportunity to point out I buy and sell AV equipment. It's common knowledge on this forum I advertised 3 or 4 pieces of Crestron. For me personnaly I only know it's high end kit and here in the UK it can cost anything from £2000 upwards to program. It seems to me that Crestron is now open season if little old me can download (Winsdeal, to help with Cresatron) So any of you guys that Pronto literate and want to go Crestron all the software is there. All you need to be is one hell of a programer.

Thanks for sharing that with us E. I'm sure it will be informative to many here in this forum.

JJP

Hi Carl, a few questions (rhetorical I hope)and comments
1- Do you tell the supply house that your an Executive Searcher when you give them your tax ID?

2- If you weren't trying to give the impression of being a pro why use a word that implies pro status?
you could have said hobbyist or DIYer. (I don't think your a liar just less than acurate about yourself sort of like the fan of a rock band trying to convince everyone he is "with the band" because he got backstage)

3- The exchange of Knowledge is what the internet was meant for, not necessrally all information though.

4- I am a working custom installation professional. I will help friendly competitors by sharing vendor resources but not customers. As they say "It's just business." Just because you can walk into the pros playground doesn't mean you are entitled to anything. That is up to the people who answer your thread. I started this one to get some feedback and it wasn't amateurs I was looking to get answer's from. Everyone thinks they can be objective but in reality, wherever we come from and who we are prejudices our viewpoint which is why I asked it in the pro's forum.

PS Sorry to have stirred you up with this thread but it really had nothing to do with you. You just happen to be one among many that inspired it.

Goodnight, don't let the bedbugs bite