I'm just curious if anybody could give me feedback on this...if I am swamped at work and offer to build a custom program on my own time to 'sell back' to my company, what is an acceptable amount? If I charge per hour than it's no different than doing the program at work and since I'm salary, essentially I'd be paid nothing.

Also...it would be feasable to also sell this programming to other companies interested (just a Crestron module to control a certain high end AM/FM tuner) and would want to charge roughly the same no matter who I sell it to. Any thoughts on going rates?

Yes the key point here is that I want to start programming on my own to make a little $$$ on the side...this would be a good way to start, with my own employer as my first 'customer'.

RobZ

Wow... talk about conflits of intrest.... If your employeer goes for this, then I guess if your OK with it it seems like a good idea.

I'm quite certain my own values would prevent me from doing AMX work "On the side" and there are plenty of nights I'm coding away on my own time to get things right or just to improve my own skills.
I'm salaried as well.... as my job covers a LOT more than just the AMX programming... I think a dedicated programmer should be paid hourly or based on a percentage of programming revenue generated...

If you sell a program back to your company, is it something they can sell to one client, or resell multiple times? That would have a significant effect on the value and selling price.

As for selling things to others, i.e. modules, there are other companies that do this now. I've seen $100 for a module with some significant utility (generator control, weather station, etc.). That price came with after the fact technical support.

The question I have to ask is who paid for your training with Crestron??

If your current employer has been paying your salary as you learn the programming you intend to sell, possibly including your trips and hotel, etc. to attend these trainings, he may not be too pleased to hear that you now want the company to pay you above and beyond your salary to program the jobs for the company...

If the company is slammed during your regular business hours and you want to program past clients' changes on the side in your off time on the weekends and evenings, this might be something to discuss... If there are a growing number of smaller issues that are important to the health of the reputation and integrity of the company that are constantly being placed on the back burner in favor of current projects, he should be open to what you are offering.

As for modules, the numbers Owen refers to are fine with me, I would gladly buy a module for an item I have never worked with before.

I know there is a community of people in both camps who share files with those who they know will reciprocate.

Rick brings up an important point, and one that has burned me several times.

I'm the principal in my company. I pay people to go to training, and I've paid for people to travel to go to training. I then pay them to work on a project at perhaps 1/3 the effeciency of me doing the work, so that they learn. Once they're up to speed, I get this at review time:

"I'm your lead programmer, and I'm fast at what I do. I've had other companies offer me a job at more money, but I want to give you the chance to meet their offer."

Yes, all true, and the market at work. Where do I get the payoff for financing all this portable skill?

Frustrated, and sensing thread drift....

I have also experienced the need to work on things after hours and on weekends and it should be paid for accordingly.


Just a few comments.

If a decent employer sees you doing extra effort and other added work on programming and templates outside the workplace then he should A. reward you, or B. increase your salary. C. Figure out a piece rate that rewards you later on a per used basis.

I would never sell my work to my company bacause you only have harsh feelings to follow and bad blood. Plus after so many years of doing this, and everyone will agree, is there any time that you really arent going through some work outside of work or preparing or whatever.

Try to keep work at work and make some sort of agreement before you do the work.....Or work out a special rate for special programming time..........

I can admit that I have spent many nights and mornings before work preping codes and templates, and scouring forums for the extra edge, and the bosses will notice and if they don't continue to show them your extra work, but remember you decided to do this unless you agreed otherwise...

Excellent. I couldn't agree more.

Training someone at the company expense is a tough call. Your damned if you do and damned if you don't. When an employee gains "valuable" skills such as programming or calibrating or other, suddenly their worth goes up, and they know it. How to prevent them from going to the competition isn't easy, money talks...
I would think that because these "valuable" skills are typically charged in a project that some form of "bonus" compensation could be all that is needed. If the employee is happy working for you, and is just responding because he really did get another offer, then keeping his salary and enabeling him to make more should be all it takes. For many CI firms out there, having someone that programs AMX or Crestron on staff is great, but unless your doing those systems in every job you do it could be very expensive to pay the expected salary of a full time programmer. Having an installer/programmer on salary and giving a bonus based on programming charges when they are being done may work. It could also create the incentive needed to have the programming work done on the employees own time (he is getting paid a little more for his new skills) . For the owners out there I know you are thinking "why should I have to do that, I just paid to train the little @##@#%^" The fact is you find some happy ground like this or you potentially loose him, and are back to paying anywhere from 50 - 150 hr to some programming company, giving a few hundred out of the programming charges as a bonus should still seem like a deal.

An old saw from retail days....
You ask, "What if I train them and they leave?"
I ask, "What if you don't train them and they stay?"

It sounds like the boss needs to make more time during work hours for you to do the work, or pony up some extra dough for you to do it after work, but I would only ask to be paid for the time, and not the intellectual property. I also would never suggest selling anything to the competition... They ARE the competition, after all...

Good luck

I offer my employees projects that they can work on at home almost weekly. I give them a choice--- I either offer to pay them overtime for working on the project, or negotiate a price for the finished product. They usually come out better on overtime pay. Either way, I try to make it worth their while to give up evenings or weekends. So far, it seems to work pretty well for me and them, although sometimes too much extra work causes some fatigue and diminishes production during normal working hours.

If one of my guys was to develp something on their own, without my suggestion or direction, I would probably make a deal with them to utilze the product on a regular basis if it was really worthwhile.

To the employers....
Because you paid for someone to learn a skill does not mean they should apply that skill free of charge in thier own time while generating more profit for you. I pay you a salary does not mean "your ass is mine 24/7". If you think it does, then you will have a lot of trouble keeping good skilled staff in the long term.


To the employees....
Appreciate how and where you learned the skills you have. We all do extra work in our downtime, thats just part and parcel of the industry. If however you are doing significant hours at night and on the weekends, i think it's only fair that you get some compensation for your efforts. Personally i'm quite happy to get a bit of overtime for after hours work and i think it would be unreasonable to expect my employer to pay me the same sort of rate as if i were a subcontractor.

If we think about it seriously, we all know what is fair and equitable for both parties.


My 2 cents on the subject.

Simon.

After being burned a few times on paying for training and watching employees leave, I finally decided to add a payback clause in my contract. If I pay for training and the employee leaves before a certain time period (typically 1 year) then I withold the amount spent on training from their final paycheck. This is typical in a lot of businesses that pay for advanced education.

And very illegal.

If thats ever challenged in court, you'll most likely lose. I'd have a lawyer look at the COntract you have your employees sign......

Ditto and having a salary employees does not remove them from being paid over time unless the contract they sign states the number of hours execpted per week otherwise after 40 it's time and half. Saw a contractor whoses employees where avg 50-60 hours a week get sued by those employees for back wages. Put him and his company under.

This message was edited by hitagain on 09/05/05 21:27 ET.