$175 and hour? I've got to envy that. Here in San Diego, people complain about $55.00 an hour! People go to Best Buys or Circuit City and spend their wad on a bunch of overpriced, poorly-matched crap, including all the cables and a universal remote, then want us to install it for a couple of hundred bucks. They are always surprised when we tell them that we actually sell the equipment and design the system and don't want to install equipment that we don't sell. If they do give us the opportunity to sell the equipment, they expect proposals with lots of options and details spelled out in great detail. They think that we should install the equipment free for the favor of buying from us. They think that installers are paid $10.00 per hour for their "labor". They think that they should get a big discout for being a nice guy or sending us some referals from their equally as cheap friends. They get three or four estimates from other audio/video installers in the area, some of which hire only illegal immigrants and do very sloppy work for almost nothing. After the installation, they expect detailed instruction manuals and lifetime warranties. Customer support is expected 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And they expect to pay for it whenever they get around to it if ever. That's what we have to deal with in San Diego, probably the most competitive area in the United States.

Okay, I'm exagerating a little. But seriously, I couldn't imagine getting $175.00 an hour for our services. I have been doing this kind of work for over 37 years , and I think that I have one of the more technically advanced installation compaines here in town. I do charge companies $85.00 an hour for engineering consulting, but don't think I can get $800 for programming a remote, even though I am dammed good at it. Maybe I'm just in the wrong city or don't realize what other companies are charging. If you guys can do it, more power to you!

I have always felt, however, that the perceived value of our services and the respect for our knowledge is greatly underestimated and greatly undervalued.

Okay, I've just had a tough day and needed to bitch a little. Thanks for enduring by ramblings.

Keith

Like it says on my site:

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur!" -- Red Adair (oil-well fire-fighter)

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com

You sound just like my boss. His company has been in business since 1942 (Originally owned by his dad) and he is constantly competeing with Best Buy and Tweeter. I don't understand why he won't just tell these people to go ahead and get it from Best Buy, and let them do it. Let Best Buy program their Pronto...Oh yeah, they don't even know how to operate a cash register! It seems like the "Agressive" companies out hear are having no problem keeping busy while we seem to be thinning out on jobs. I have heard of one local company charging $1500 for an engineering fee, on top of their hourly rates for installs and propgramming. I was also told by a previous employee of theirs that he has seen them turn away customers for arguing about their prices and questioning whether or not they were worth it. That may seem arrogant, but I think it also lets people see that you don't need to do their job for less than it is worth. I feel that if you give in to these "Bargain Basements" you won't be able to afford to pay a good installer, thus jeopordizing the company. I don't think I'm the best installer out there, But I think I'm very underpaid. I'm the only guy in the company that programms Panasonic phone Systems, Pronto remotes, and Niles systems (Not that that is difficult). But, I am also the only guy that wires the components, and takes the heat if something goes wrong. And I am being paid $8 less an hour than a guy that left last year that only ran wire, and bashed holes in walls when he got frustrated from snaking. I honestly used to get sent to fix his f-ups and was getting paid $11 less an hour then him at the time. Pretty sad...

I just read my last post and I apologise if you took it as an insult. It kinda looked that way after I re-read it, but it wasn't meant that way. I just get sick of clients with BIG wallets and BIG houses, that want the BIG boy toys, but insist on nickel and diming you because they refuse to admit to themselves that "Niceties" are sometimes more costly than "Necessities"

Fellas,

That rate is ONLY for AMX and system design. All other stuff is between $85.00-$129.00, and is conveyed to the customer in a fashion that it will only take X-amount of hours to do this. Even if one goes over, the customer may only pay so much.

McNasty, I'm a one man show when it comes to final install and programming, so I know EXACTLY what you mean about occasionally feeling underpaid!

About 5 years ago one of my clients asked me if I could assist them with the computer setup at their office. I told them it wasn't my area of expertise but ended up agreeing to help them interview and select a vendor to assist them with their contact management/CRM project. This was not a large setup - we are talking 3 PC's for the three salespeople. After many phone interviews I discovered that the industry rate for PC consulting and setup of any type in our area was a minimum of $125.00 per hour. Even a tech support call asking "how do I print a calendar report" was billed at $125.00 per hour. And many of the firms wouldn't even touch the project unless a minimum of $5000.00 + was involved. Remember, we were not talking fortune 500 stuff here, just setting up a few PC's with a contact management program. And I can tell you that these rates are nothing compared to what I have been quoted on "serious" software installations.

Anyhow, this experience helped me to put the rates in our industry into perspective. And while it may just be professional pride, I like to think that what we do on average is more complicated than installing Act on a network.

This message was edited by QQQ on 09/11/02 16:52.21.

You are absolutely correct! What we do is as difficult as configuring a computer network. In addition to programming, we have to understand electronics, sound, video, construction and have to have a good eye for aesthetics. Our knowledge can not be aquired by just attending school. We do deserve just as much as computer network people.

I'm not quite sure what happened with the public's perception about the difficulty of what we do. People think that all we have to do is plug in a few cables and it will work. They don't understand how complicated and time-consuming it is to make it all work without any thought on their part.

Perhaps CEDIA could run ads in consumer-oriented A/V magazines to help consumers understand the importance of our knowledge and skill and therefore increase the perceived value of our services.

This thread has helped me to realize that I need to educate my clients about value of what we do. One thing for sure is that I'm going to raise our rates.
As it is now, we have more business than we know what to do with, so we might as well thin it out a little and make more money on the projects that we actually choose to do. I should stop worrying about clients who choose someone less expensive and concentrate on clients who respect my skill level and value my time.

Thanks guys!

Keith

As an end user and a DIY type guy plus with a lot of friends in the A/V business I can tell you guys the public has no clue what you guys do or how invloved it is. I am sure you and or your bosses pay big bucks to Cedia every year. They really need to get the word out. Some of you guys do make magic. :)

Having done all aspects of my home theater, distribution, network, entertainment systems myself, I know there are several times I would have, should have, and wished I had hired a professional. I had my phone system installed by a professional because something that important needs to have someone to stand behind it. I thought..."hey a Crestron control system would be nice...I bet I could do that". I got on here, started checking out prices for the gear alone...I was in shock. But, considering my whole theater, and possibly my whole house system is worth less than some people spend on just their projector or control system...I know when the time comes I'm going to gladly pay someone who knows what they're doing, who'll stand behind it, and who'll do what I want done. I can't do it myself, so who am I to tell them they're worth anything less?

Where does this "PHAST" stuff come from? you oldtimers remember audioease? all of the old school tp programs suck. e me and i will go into detail [email protected]

How about Frox and the Adcom Ball

Frox??!!!Boy that's really reaching deep into our dark past. What a mess that was.

You guys rule! "GOOD OLD BETA SOFTWARE"
Nice to know there are people who suffered as much as i did back in the day!

Damn imagine that. Were all still here!!!
even though it sucks sometimes, It is one hell of a fun job.

Anyone ever have to mess with those old RCA Dimensia systems. YIKES!!!

Nothing is as fun as connecting old B&0 with new B&0, and telling the customer how much it will cost!