Have a potential client inquire about a basic security system for their new construction. We have no line up of these products yet, as our market hasnt dictated us to carry any to this point. Crestron and the like are not candidates for us at this time (pending Powerball success), although I realize this line would be our best bet. I've done some web searching for a combination system offering basic integration abilities, and it seems every hit points toward HAI Omni or similar PLC type systems.

I much prefer hardwired proprietary systems for reliability, since we will now be trying to develop our market for these products, and our first system customer being unhappy would make this task rather difficult.

Summary:
-Basic security system covering a lot of windows, with dialing capabilities; web control and access would be a plus
-Hardwired lighting control with the ability to be interfaced with the security system
-Control system that will allow combined control of security, lighting, theater and possibly mutlizone audio.
-Possible survellience system that can be integrated with the above.

This client isn't aware of what they really want, they want to know whats possible.

Priorities go to: 1) reliability 2) ease of use 3) ease of setup and programming

Can anybody advise me based on their experiences? Any suggestions would be appreciated as I'm lost in the sea of overwhelming possibilities.

Please keep in mind these will be lines we will probably be supporting for awhile, so tech service, company stability, ect are important.

I would highly recommend the HAI OmniProII system. It integrates everything that you want:
Security
Temperature
Lighting (ALC and the new PROVEN RELIABLE powerline carrier- UPB)
Audio Integration (Russound and Nuvo)

Can be accessed remotely via the web interface. Can even be integrated with Windows Media Center PC. The programming is pretty simple, but not to limiting in its abilities. I would suggest signing up for one of their free training classes, they go over the entire product line, which will give you a real good idea of their capabilities. It's a great company with many years in the industry.

You should really look at Crestron or AMX for this type of job. If its not possible for you to pick either of these lines up now, it may be possible to partner up with someone outside of your immediate area to help you complete the job to the level the customer desires.


Are they aware of the cost associated with a project of this level? Anything is possible with enough money.
Remember, speed costs money...how fast do you want to go? I use that analogy with people sometimes and it seems to 'sink in' with them that they can or cannot afford their desires.


No offense to the HAI product line, as it is a solid performer but it is NOT a standalone control system. IMO, it is a security system that has some moderate control capabilities. Reliable, yes, right for your situation, probably not. As far as ease of use, nothing beats a touchscreen with plain-english labeled buttons.
Ease of setup and programming is really only relavent to what your skill level is. As I remember from years back, the HAI systems were not difficult to program but they were time consuming. I much prefer programming Crestron systems to HAI.


If these are lines you indeed want to develop a long-term relationship with, why not go after the 'best of the best'? You will be doing the right thing for your customer in the long run if you spec in a standalone control system and integrate that with the subsystems they wish for you to control. There are programmers for hire all over the country that could handle the programming for you until you get up to speed. I understand starting small and working your way up but this customer, based on what you have stated here, wants a level of control that is just not possible with the lower end automation systems. Good luck.

I second the HAI OmniPro2. It will give all of the features you desire, & then some. The HLC (HAI UPB version) lighting controls are excellent. It also interfaces very easily, via serial, w/ Lutron Radio RA & Homeworks.

I guess that it depends on what the market is like in your area, IMO. In my area there is no one installing Crestron or AMX, and we have plenty of nice houses here. The only problem is that no one is willing to dish out that much extra cash! I am currently having moderate success installing the HAI systems because it is right for any budget. We sell it as a security contoller with benefits. Which is what it is, however when you are having a home built you are very careful on what you spend. So we install in the security controller and a few months down the road go back and remind of them of all of the great things that the security system can do. Then we add the a lighting system, integrate it with the audio, throw in a thermostat and temp sensor and add a touchscreen now their $800 security system just got upgraded with no lost costs. I am not real familiar with AMX and Crestron pricing but I really don't think that they can do what the HAI line (yes it is the basics) for less than $10,000 complete. A typical HAI system (complete with lighting no audio) sells for less than $5000 installed, (progamming extra).
Just out of curiousity what is the biggest seller for Crestron and AMX other than what HAI can do (ie. video integration, wireless control etc...)

So, what I'm gathering to this point is:

It's either HAI using UPB, which I'm hesitant on the UPB part...

or Crestron, which I'll have to buy in $$$$$ , prewire the home and wait months to years in order to take the programming classes before I can install the hardware.

There's no in between?

I wouldn't be against starting with just a decent hardwired security system that can be controlled via a 3rd party control system later. Ditto on the lighting.

I do understand that Crestron is the ultimate solution. I understand that Crestron would be a great investment. I'd love nothing more than to bring on the line and promote it. However, we are a new company with limited financing in a total market area,including a 50-60 mile radius, of 60,000 people. If 4-5 new custom home homes go up in 1 year it's a great year. Alot of our work is small retrofit theaters, with some distributed audio. Top it off with rumors of a national "big box" chain breaking ground sometime this summer, you might be able to see my reluctance in signing on a product line with commitments I probably can't support. People in this market hesitate to spend 5000 on a good, installation friendly plasma when "this place" or "that place" sells "a bigger one for 3000.00"
Dangit, rambling again. Guess I was trying to explain our market and financial situation to the "Crestron is the only way" crowd.

Just a note on the lighting options with HAI. While UPB is a far more proven technology than X-10, I understand your hesitation. HAI integrates with many different lighting sytems which include popular hard wired and wireless solutions susch as Radio Ra. Take a look at www.homeauto.com and look at the connectivity section, it should give you an idea of what they integrate with.

I don't know about the others on the market, but GE Interlogix security panels are very automation friendly and have 2-way RS-232 capability for automation use.

As for lighting control, all of the big independant players (Lutron, Lite Touch, Vantage) have hard wired dimming panel based systems as well as traditional dimmers that are on the automation system. If you are at the begining stage, Radio Ra w/ Chronos controller is a powerful system that can be operational as a standalone, and then be folded into an automation system as that part of the project progresses. We use Lutron HWI, which is a little more powerful as well as fully capable in standalone or fully automated projects.

Look into Vantage, as they also have their own touchscreens and may have enough power and flexibility to serve as your automation system as well. They are not quite as powerful as Crestron or AMX, but they are ahead of the Elan Vias in a lot of ways.

The ONLY problem with Crestron is the cost factor.

Same thing as being a Lexicon, Krell or McIntosh dealer. You've got a rather limited market.

We all know that Crestron is a great product, Just as we all know that a Ferrari is the automobile to have.

Unfortunately, the REAL world being what it is, the average guy tends to purchase something other than a Ferrari, or a Crestron system.

So your saying my world isn't real ?? I must be caught in he matrix :)

A Crestron distributed audio system for 6 zones ( using non Crestron distributed audio amplifier of your preference ) runs about 5500. While you can in all probability find some system in the 2500 range the Crestron price is competitive with Elan and offers the potential for more. This Crestron$$$, while not nonesense is also somewhat an exaggeration. I grant the point that 500 here or a 1000 dollars there and you are talking about real money. But the fact is you cannot a Ferrari for a 10% more than a Chevy. If you are going to sell 17" recessed touch panels, video distribution, you will have a system with a large price tag. But a system with a few touch panels, lots of keypads and RF remote controls can be done so that it does not break the bank nor compromise ease of use.

The real problem for you is finding someone to partner up with as you will in all probability not be able to convince the Crestron rep that you are a viable dealer with only one "iffy" job on the books. Crestron's lighting systems are less expenisve than many of their competitors.

All of this said, I would think HAI the right security system and use the serial adaptor to talk to your favorite lighting system which you can obtain. I caution you to be mindful of the following and that is keep track of your labor spent making this system work. It's not that HAI is any more or less reliable than any other kludge. It's a security system on steroids. Vanage may have the right product for you. It's a lighting system on steroids. It's progtraming utility is powerful so it can interface into any automatable security system, to which HAI and GE/Caddix are the best. Your options are use a lighting system with a powerful software utility or a security box with a less powerful utility or use the big boys ( AMX or Crestron ) and partner up.

Alan

Can I chime in here?? I think this is called a buget system. Now if I wrere to look back at where I was in the beggining of my low voltage years, I be installing and programming Alarm systems. Not just one brand, but many. I'd be happy just to sell an alarm for 3000.00. Remember those days. HA ha! SO now, been working with Crestron for 2 yrs and life is just different. Some say my clients have a Budget?? What is that when a WIFI wireless touch panel exists? OK you want only 5 of them? I guess thats ok.?
I used to use ademco with phone module and x-10 light modules. It's press & pray.
Please bid Crestron first, then be happy to install and program the master elite home automation system. It really is worth it. But just like Alarms, there will be a time when the price will come down. You sound like you still don't own a plasma yourself.

BNC

Crestron: IT really does work. Only if every device/source was rs232???

Elk ?

http://www.elkproducts.com/

It has the capability to due what you need, but from the standpoint of selling it to your customers..? Its priced low enough that you could have a decent mark-up....

dunno.... thoughts?

Has your company looked into Control 4 for control. It just might work for you. Installed several systems with Control4 and it has worked like a champ.

www.control4.com

I've talked with a Control4 rep when news of them first hit the market. He flat out told me they are ONLY looking for the "big guns" on the market. I initially took this as "you're a peon wasting my valuable telephone time." This surprising response from a start up company, like myself, prompted me to further research Control4, however this time with a more negative attitude, for reason NOT to work with the line and for points on how to sell AGAINST it.

As has been said many times... the market for the small specialist is dying... as is the day of vendors with helpful, understanding employees.

I will say this about the Cestron rep I spoke with. Mr. Craig G. is a very enthusiastic, understanding man. He's very up front and open about the pluses of Crestron, and the requirements to sell the line. A genuinely friendly rep that served his days in retail and understands the small dealer. Unfortunately the line is only so financially flexible, and as of this very point, I cannot commit to the line.

Everyone has been a great help so far. Many many options it seems.

My thoughts at this point are to give this client 2 possible solutions:

#1 A basic, serial controllable security system such as Caddx (we are using a Caddx in our current store), and a seperate standalone hardwired lighting system such as Centralite, which seems easy enough to operate and program, and also allows future serial control. Then sell them on future control upgrades via hopefully Crestron.

#2 The HAI OmniPro system, which will be a basic security system that controls some lighting, and possibly some cameras.

I'm hoping for some tried and true recommendations on these or similar systems. Please limit reponses to entry to mid level products, Crestron is NOT an option for me at this point.

I'm also still looking at the Vantage system, it does require some training classes, but not even near what Crestron requires.

One priority I look for in lines is limited or no availability to the line within a good sized radius of our shop. I don't necessarily want a monopoly on the line, but having grown up in this largely rural state, I realize that people WILL either drive themselves 100-200 miles to save 50.00, or pay someone else healthy mileage fees to drive that far, if they initially see a cost saving on other "quotes". I have tired rather quickly of spending hours/days of walk throughs and research for potential clients, only to have them "order it in and install themselves" per my recommendations, or "find a better deal from someone out of town" I refuse to become a "market whore" with fast, low quality installations and crappy service after the sale. I've built myself and our shop an excellent name in mobile electronics, and I am going to follow suit in CI.

Once again, I thank all of you for your time and input, yes even the Crestron fanatics.