It surprises me when I see someone spend $400 to $600 for someone to come over and so a ISF callibration. I guess I could see under $200, but just because you spent $3k or more on a set should mean you need to spend more to tweak it. That would be the same as buying a new car and taking it to a shop to 'tune it up'.
Before I get jumped on by the ISF group, I know what equipment costs and the training course you have to take and I'm sure there are insurance costs, but those rates are a bit much for most of us especially when one can do MOST of it themselves, or at least get close.

The generator that seems to be the choice is this Accupell HG-3000;
http://www.accupel.com/

But there are others at around half the cost;
[Link: yem.co.jp]

[Link: extron.com]

[Link: www2.dvigear.com]

[Link: mcm.newark.com]

and the one I choose which can be had under $600 (price was just dropped $175);
[Link: bkprecision.com]

The down side of that is there is no digital out, just RGB and composite either through the green channel or a S-video out, both only giving you B&W, no chroma. But the patterns are standard patterns and it is fairly easy to use and is small. Best part it is American made (so is the Accupell I beleive).

Instructions:
[Link: lashen.com]

Views either way?

This message was edited by videobruce on 03/26/05 11:42 ET.

My view is that your opinion is legit and besides there will always be those that prefer to pay others to perform a task and those that prefer to do the task themselves.

My view is also that it is a bit odd that you would make this argument on a forum that is Not for DIY, but for custom installers. I'd think it would be more appropriate on a general or DIY section of the board.

Nevertheless, some may find your links useful.

Would a Mod move it?
Thanks.

You are showing Pattern Generators. That's one tool used for ISF, but I don't see you showing the color balancing equipment. Without the color balancer how do you set your color temperature and gamma curve?

I have nothing against DIY. Many of us started out that way. But, you are definitely underestimating equipment cost and education cost.

Signal Generator : Sencore VP403 - this is the cheapest signal generator at the moment that calibrates the whole chain of components. The signal generator you are using allows you to calibrate your display but it doesn't take into account everything you have plugged into the display. And don't count on that free cable/Sat box to be a reference piece. By using a generator as this you connect it to your cable/SAT/OTA box RF input and that way the calibration includes the whole signal path. Although, calibrating your display alone does help. For DVD players you should use a DVD test disc. Cost $5000 Other companies are well over $10,000 and as much as 30,000.

Color analyzer: Depending on model and type. $1800-$30000.

Test DVD's and cables, etc. ?>$500

Service Manuals: $25or> depneding on display.

ISF Class: $?1200 now
Projector class $1200
CRT add on $500
Fixed Pixel Display Class $1100
Manufacturer's training : usually free but you have to count your time.
Time spent getting trained.

Cost to make sure your calibration equipment is to spec. Usually done every 6 month to a year depending on equipment. $500 annually.

Many of us will never make back the cost of equipment and training on calibrations alone. But, for our company it has helped us get jobs against our competitors. For that it was worth it.

Standard ISF Pricing to calibrate a set $225-325 depending on display type and $125 for each additional input. I don't think that is too bad considering everything. Calibrators are allowed to charge what they wish. Some are more and some less. We usually go with standard pricing and on many RP/FP CRT's we definitely lost out given the number of hours we had to put in.

It would be nice if manufacturer's gave an allowance towards calibration when you buy a set. I know we include it with every installation but is extra if someone is just buying a display.

Bob

Gosh , Bruce, 3-5 hrs labor plus all the other costs mentioned above and it seems expensive? How much does a plumber charge in your area or is this another DIY?
lol
TJG

Without the Proper tools to MEASURE what your looking at, and the experience and training to adjust it correctly, all those Generators are about as worthwhile as a Video Essentials or Avia DVD.

If your a Do it yourselfer, there really no reason to spend even $600 on a signal generator...... SHeesh... thats 1.. Maybe 2 Professional Calibrations... A $40 AVia disc will get you as close to where you want to be without the Generator.

Seems like Incredibly backwards logic to me. Spend $600, and stare are some interesting patterns on your TV... Adjust a few thing your really dont know about..... and hope you make it better..... OR Spend 300-400 to have it professionally Calibrated by someone who does know what hes doing and WILL set your television up to the standards available.

Actually, if I were a DIY I would go with the new AVIA disc set that runs about $400. It's outstanding. (It's an also excellent tool for pros).

I didn't look at every single link on the alternatives to the Accupel HDG-3000, but I didn't seen anything else that had the DVI output like the Accupel. I just recently placed an order for my third one, and I can say for sure that it is a well made piece of gear, and there is alot of years of video engineering experience in the design of it.

(edit) OK, now I looked at all your links. You did find a couple DVI models, but for me there is a lot of value in having both DVI and analog in one box. I also recommend the remote for the Accupel for convienience during calibration.

This message was edited by Late Night Bill on 03/26/05 18:56 ET.

Thats not quite right. When you buy a car, its a complete system like buying a COMPLETE audio system calibrated. Your example should read, It's like buying a high performance crate motor and spending $500 to have it professionally tuned.

Actually, the first statement is probobly closer to the truth that the poster intended......

Cars..... Just like TV's, FOr the most part, are built for a Wide range of individuals. THey must satisfy decent Performace, Good mileage, EPA regulations and Meet a Price point. There arent many cars on the road that are tuned to the best they can be off the showroom floor.

ANd just about every motor can be tuned to a higher performance level.

Look how many aftermarket Performace parts there are out there? WHy would you need a Bolt on Centrifical Supercharger on your brand new car? It gets from Point A to Point B RIght?

So the Car analagy was probobly the WORST one I've ever heard or seen to refute the value of Calibrating a television.

I have the Milori's Color Facts patterns on my laptop.

I can output S Video, VGA, and DVI in many resolutions including native 16x9 in 1920x1080 progressive. I havent used the laptop on a digital display through DVI, but supposedly the set's EDID allows the internal scaler to choose the correct output resolution for the display's native resolution.

As far as cost...
I already owned a high end laptop, and the patterns were free to DL from milori's website.

I would imagine that any HTPC or decent PC that has DVI output and a decent video card can be used with this software.

But... like it is said above, having the patterns and access to the setup isn't enough to get you to the finest picture.

Experience and training are the keys...

I personally use the Avia DVD for my calibrations and must admit that it dramatically improved the picture. For the $20 I spent on it, it was worth every penny for a DIY job.

As far as any analogies, in this case, I don't believe in them. My opinion is that you need to look at the facts, which mean that the bottom line = quality + value. If you can hire someone to calibrate for $300, what's the point of spending around $1300?

With so many new and emerging technologies, the device you buy may be inferior when/if you upgrade a piece of equipment. So, if you figure 2 calibrations per year at $300/ea, that's $600 year and not having spent $1300 all at once. Also factor in the time it takes to learn how to properly use the equipment, plus the time it takes to perform the calibrations themselves, etc. That will probably add up to well over $1300, since you're not taking into account your personal time costs.

This is just my personal view, but I was trying to be objective with the overall economics and value proposition of what you're looking to do. :)



Thank you,
Damon DG
= = = = =
Control Systems Consulting, Sales & Remote Programming

To use DVI on a laptop you might need some custom settings. PC DVI uses values between 0 and 255 for grayscale. Video DVI uses 16-235, the 0-15 and 236-255 range is used for blacker than black and whiter than white information sent to the display. This information is not supposed to be displayed and might be on a laptops DVI output. Some of the custom programs out there can compensate for this. Just to make you aware.

Bob

As I said...


So thanks for that tip, Bob. I will have figure out how to set up my DVI.

Weren't digital video connectors supposed to make things easier??
Perfect EDID handshake recognition from source to display for automatic configuration of settings for optimum picture... HAHAHAHA!!!

EDID config is a mess and little magic boxes allegedly fix the problem... different PC vs. video standards... HDCP compatibility issues... multitudes of cabes and connection types, is it DVI-D?? (or "I"?? or "A"?? and is it single link or dual link??)

OR maybe I can just connect everything in HDMI... but not quite everything because some components are from (gasp!) LAST YEAR!! and they only have DVI digital video connectors, so lets adapt DVI to HDMI, but not unless all of the DVI outputs on the components are HDCP compliant...

How is this better???

I still prefer component video in my jobs, not necessarily because of performance because DVI can be noticibly better, but because I can get the hell out of there and know it's going to work.

Any other feedback on using the laptop with the freeware patterns??

This message was edited by 2nd rick on 03/27/05 19:58 ET.