OK guys,
I am thinking of making a change and want some feedback.

I am a firm believer in visual documentation of system design for presentation, work orders, and most importantly future service.

I am currently using Visio and RackTools for my layouts for presentation and work orders, leaving the wiring methods of the listed components to the crews to hand written notes on the plans, communicating issues through regular e-mails and round table meetings to discuss the concerns.

I would like to include a more thorough documentation of the types of connectivity as well as the basic rack layout and system diagrams.

I am fearful that the current confusion of component, DVI, HDMI, etc. will confuse the hell out of the future techs on service calls to current projects since they will hopefully (prayers) have a single standard to learn/use.

I feel that I owe it to the clients to provide them with the best documentation that I can provide, and I feel that I may be short changing them in certain ways due to my unwillingness to invest in D-Tools or StarDraw A/V and get myself locked in to mandatory upgrades and renewals in order to maintain a usable product that requires such a steep initial investment.

I have seen the StarDraw site, and it comes with some strong recommendations, but I don't know enough about it.

Does anyone have practical experience with StarDraw and D-Tools to make a comparison??
are the pre-made templates in these programs worth it??
or
should I take a class on ways to better utilize the power of Visio, which I already own??

Last question...
What volume level justifies a dedicated draftsman on staff to keep up with the proposals, the current project change orders, and final project documentation for archive??
$3M, $5M, $10M??

I spend too much time in front of this screen as it is...

Rick,

IMHO the value of these programs is overlooked by many. We spent 5K on D-Tools several years back and paid for it in our very first large project we took on after it due to:

1. Time saved. Nothing short of incredible time savings.

2. Increased revenue from design charges. You can't justify approrpiate design charges unless you can produce top notch documentation. D-Tools does not give that to you automatcailly, but it sure makes it one heck of a lot easier to get there.

3. More jobs won because of professional documentation. Use it as a sales tool to separate you from the pack.

I have done a comparison of the two some time back. At the time I felt that D-Tools was heads and shoulders above Star Draw but it was a while back and I'm foggy on the facts so I'm afraid I can't give you more than that. The Business Manager module is the only element of D-Tools we aren't using yet as it's still a paper trail instead of an elecronic one so it's got a way to go IMO.

p.s. I don't recommend D-Tools to everyone and *personally* (D-Tools would neber tell you this) I don't recommend ANY high-end program such as D-Tools or Star Draw unless you are willing to invest 2-3K in a plotter. You can start without one and use a blueprint company or print on 11 x 17 but you've GOT to get a plotter to join the big leagues IMHO. Unless you know of an architect that does their prints on 11 x 17. I don't - luckily. I think we went about 6 months until we got one and it was then that we were really "set free" with the program.

What kills me is that D-Tools changes manufacturers to be D-Tools partners, and then turns around and resells the shapes to the end users.

I've issued an open invitation to all manufacturers to feel free to email me with their Visio symbol libraries and I'd be happy to accept them free of charge.

Actually Rick, you can do quite a bit of detailed wiring layouts by just using Visio and a basic set of symbols. Visio is something of a unique program because out of the box, it's pretty limited (unless you're just looking to do flowcharts), but it has tremendous capabilities. In fact, if you know VBA, you can customize the heck out of it.

Can you elaborate?? There seem to be about 10 levels of online, seminar style, or onsite classes all with steep price tags.
As someone who is now fully immersed, what would you recommend to get started??


That's the best advice I have gotten so far.

That's not accurate at all! D-Tools does NOT charge end users for stencils and data from manufacturers that participate in the D-Tools program.

However, they do charge end users for stencils and data for manufacturers that do Not particpate, since in this instance D-Tools is doing the work without compensation from the manufacturer.

1. I personally find the D-Tools leanring curve very easy and think anyone that has any CAD experience will. Others seem to think differently. They (D-Tools) have a number of "how-to" videos that ship with the product and may even be downloadable from their web site.

2. I recommend looking into a multi-monitor setup for who ever is doing your CAD work. It's another cost that pays for itself if you count the hours you save. I have 4 monitors and there's nothing like it. I lived with one for a long time so don't consider it a necessity but I have cut my design time in half by using multiple monitors.

3. Go to these sites and download all of their plans in pdf format and study them. The best and easiest way to learn good documentation. You will need to have popups allowed to access the second site.
[Link: axiomdesign.com]
http://www.axiomgroup.us/

4. More than anything, just take the time to sit and watch all the videos and read the mauals. I'd pay extra for the paper ones if they are available, otherwise print them out if you can. With CAD, knopwing the shortcuts can save hours and allow you to do in minutes what you might spend an hour doing otherwise. But it requires a lot of discipline to sit down and read a manual every night until you get to the end but pays off 10 fold in time saved.

Hope that helps.

Being the anal person that I am, I stuck all the numbers into Excel. After some quick formulas, I have estimated the cost of ownership for years 1-5 for a single Pro user as well as my estimated two user setup.

With the Gold Support, Quick Links, and Data Subsription all factored in. it looks like the Outright Purchase option saves quite a bit over time, starting in year 2, but then I pay for upgrades and updates...

The single user scenario comes out to be $5,248 upfront plus $1,260 per year for one Pro license...

The two user scenario I put together costs $9,150 upfront plus $1,860 per year.
That is for one Pro and one Standard, with both able to draft change orders but only one running reports, plus the NetSync and Web Sync features for sharing.

QQQ, is this really worth it?? anyone else wish to share their D-Tools fever??

Not to sway the subject too far O.T., but...
Are any of you more likely to use a manufacturers equipment because the stencils were in D-tools?
Same question but asked differently is, what do you do if you find some gear that is not in D-tools? Make your own stencils, bug D-tools to make them, or choose different gear?

Absolutely...
I am not a D-Tools user to this point, but I use rack tools for diagrams and rack mount all components, even if the manufacturer doesn't offer a rackmount faceplate or rack ears.
I count on the manufacturers that support Middle Atlantic's rackshelf program, and those manufacturers get specified.
If it is up between a few models, I WILL check the online database first.

I get pretty bent when I have to ship a component...
Sending a unit to NJ adds a week to 2 weeks to the timeframe of a job for me, not to mention the extra shipping cost and opportunity for something stupid to happen to the component in the extra transit.

This type of thing represents time and money at the least, just like squirelly control issues in a component. And JUST like weird control issues, sometimes the worst possible scenario plays out at the absolute wrong time.

All manufacturers that show at CEDIA and/or EHX with the intention of selling ANYTHING to the custom install crowd should offer sample units to MA to get RSH dimensions on file, stencils for documentation guys, bulletproof serial operation, and fully discrete IR control w/ rear 1/8" jacks.

So much depends on you and your business. I suspect just about every one of these programs (D-Tools or otherwise) can result in improved efficiency if they are really embraced by a company - but the big problem is that depending on the way you operate you may or may not be able to embrace software IF it forces you to work in a way that is contrary to *your* natural work flow.

For me the answer was yes - in spades.

D-Tools used to offer either a 30 day or 90 day eval period. If it's 30 days that's tough because I don't think it's enough time. If you are very hesitant I would ask them for a guarantee in writing of a 90 day evaluation and just start with the single copy of Pro.

I agree - 30 days is just enough to get frustrated. After 90 days, you might have enough of the grunt work done to start seeing results, and seeing the potential benefits...

I'd be willing to try it out if they'd only offer a 5 year trial.

I purchased D-tools, and paid like 2K up front and $130. a month. I have the Lansync which lets multi users use the software (not at the same time thou). As of now, i have not one one proposal with it. My sales teams is so stuck in the "Horizon Software" mode that they think its a waste of time to make the change. Im starting to aggree - Even if i get the D-tools database built and effective, i need to re train my team to use it (possiable send them to training). And even if they enter all the information into a proposal, you still have to do alot of leg work to get it into a blue-print form.

I think im going to cancel my subscrition to D-tools - I invested in NETZOOM AV Stenciles (which has everything D-tools has in the form of stenciles). Ill just train myself a bit better in Visio and call it a day.

I'll give ya fifty bucks for it!

Heck I'll double it and give ya $100.

The netzoom stencils sounds interesting. Do you have a link???

Thanks
Robbie S