I'm stinging from two recent bad experiences dealing with the client's "people", where I feel the client cancelled on me because it was easier to go back on a commitment with a person he had never met. I remember a Russ Herschelman class where he had said he never dealt with anyone except the client on the initial contact and initial sale. Anyone else out there have this policy and find themselves sticking to it?

This message was edited by Theaterworks on 02/10/05 08:03 ET.

Project a couple of years ago had an owner who was "too busy" for even an initial meeting. I was told to work with the interior decorator and the General Contractor. I knew both these people well and they had no interest or expertise in laying out the A/V system. I told them I would have to pass unless I could meet the owner. He called me and again said work through his people, he was just too busy to meet.

My answer - "If you are unhappy with the results, are you going to *find* the time to complain and ask me to "fix" the system?"

He said "Hell Yes". I explained the chances of designing a system that would really make him happy with zero/minimal personal input was astronomically low. Since we were *both* busy, we would actually save time, trouble & money by meeting now. I kept the meeting as efficient & painless as I could and he ended up happy. As a side benefit, the ID & GC both thanked me for getting them out of the loop - they already had their hands full.

This is my standard policy, but I'’ve done projects minus direct contact. I've designed systems per the A/V contact and included disclaimers in the proposal for the resolution of the inevitable owner-requested changes & additions to be handled as a separate contract. Basically "This is our best wild-assed guess of what he wants, we will finish this & you will pay us. If we are wrong, you'll have to pay for any changes or additions to the original proposal."

My other concern of the absent-owner situation is since we never develop a personal relationship, referrals are unlikely.

Tough call. No easy answer. As a *general* rule, I refuse to give a bid when I cannot meet the client. If the potential is there I am willing to meet with the representative (assuming a few factors of course) and give them a full presentation, but explain to them that I want to meet the client. If they refuse, that's usually a bad sign.

I might break the rule in some situations but here's an example of a recent project (where I didn't break the rule). I was contacted. I was the only vendor that met with the client. The client had 5 bids. This was a very large project and many hours had gone into these bid packages. The client hardly looked at the bids, met with me, decided to go with me and gave me all the bids in a folder! So all those guys put in all that time into 50 page bids, some with very long preambles, that were never even read! They might as well have given him 50 pages of algebraic formulas because he had no clue what any of those bids "meant".

The exception would be a situation where you have an architect or interior designer that is working with the client and has also worked with you and you know they will push for you. But EVEN then I would storngly push to meet with the client.

This message was edited by QQQ on 02/10/05 18:38 ET.

I'm confused - How did you become the only one to meet the client?


This is one my rules - I try to never fax, mail or "drop off" a proposal. I want to present it personally to walk them through the fine points & get the clients reaction, including facial expressions and body language. If that is not possible, I at least want to go over it page-by-page on a phone call.

I'm good :-).

Because I insisted on meeting with the client AND doing a design. Which on this project I actually did at no cost because I was pretty confident I would win the project, and did not think a design fee would go over well for reasons we need not get into here. I try never to be so inflexible that I am shooting myself in the foot.

Agreed, and in fact in my first meeting with a client always I emphasize that I will want to meet them again to present my proposal. I can't even remember a client ever refusing to but if they did it would be a very bad sign and I would likely not proceed. I do remember when I worked in retail once having a customer come into the store, meet with me and then asked me to fax them a proposal. I asked them for a meeting to review it. They expressed trepidation, then showed back up on a weekend unannounced when I was with other clients and insisted that if they could just have the proposal they would review it and call me. The moment I gave them the proposal I knew all my time had been wasted and that I would never hear from the again - and I didn't.

Of course, I don't necessarily think I didn't get the project just because I didn't present it to them - but also because the fact that they didn't want to give me a chance to present it to them indicated the type of client they were - likely getting bids from 5 different vendors that would be decided by trying to conclude that they got 10 widgets in proposal a for $1000 less than 9 widgets in proposal B. "Let's go with proposal A".

I lost a small project once on the flip of a coin. He said he couldn't tell the difference between the 2 proposals, so this was his way of being "fair".

I may have just given a weak presentation, but I still thought it was a lazy-ass way out *if* he was telling me the truth.

If I lose a project, I always want to know why. Telling me I was "Tails" didn't give me much to go on.

This message was edited by Barry Shaw on 02/10/05 22:39 ET.

How about the General Contractor that wants everything run through him. We explained over and over that there was no way this guy was going to be able to present a detailed proposal to a client but he wanted his cut so bad that he had to send it in with modified cost plus pricing. This is for a client I've already done two houses for but is very busy and hard to nail down to anything resembling a meeting.

Anyway, stupidly, we sent in a basic budgets overview that succinctly stated that nothing was nailed down as far as design and couldn't be until meetings had been finished with the client. GC sent in his reworded overview of our overview with 15% attached to our upper budget and our client is balking.

QQQ, Barry... I really want this job. If you are me what do you do now?

Will try to answer later - that's a tough one.

rhm9,
Was the General contractor involved with any of the last projects?

I understand that the General wants his cut, especially if he has to draw the money out of a construction account before the owners get the mortgage and take possesion. I feel in this case he is entitled, because he is paying for it. Does he really need to have 15% of a TV and a entertainment system? You be the Judge, I say no.
If the client is paying out of pocket and is balking, you need to contact them directly for the meeting, even if this means at an airport during a layover or during drive time: rent a limo. You have done two for him before, you have the edge, unless he is unhappy, and you may know more about what he needs in his new home based on the last sales.
If I were in your shoes, I would submit the rough-in package to the GC to mark up and get as much futureproof prep done with conduit, cables, brackets and such after you have made the initial meeting with the client and the needs for each room.
Leave the finish contract between you and the client. You will have to create the understanding between you and the client in the initial meeting that the finish equipment for the house is undecided and that is what you tell the GC, because essentially that is what is happening.
It is unfortunate that the GC has already seen a possible equipment list and pricing, and I am sure his mouth is watering for the extra cut. Bad move.

How important is the builder to you long-term?

Is he the kind of GC you *want* to work for/with again? Note there is a difference between for & with, depending on if the builder or the owner brings you on the project.

Are you prepared to end-run the GC assuming you can get a meeting with the owner? If so, the owner may bring you in & remind the builder that he works for *him*.

Can the GC be educated on why you just *may* be a better A/V salesman than he is? As in next time he'll turn the owner over you instead of running interference.

The builders that openly justify to the owner why they merit taking a % should actually come out ahead letting you make the sale. The builders that try to hide their % are almost impossible to deal with since by definition they're not completely honest.

i have worked out a way to keep all parties happy. Typically, I have an understanding with my builders that all labor, speakers and VC's are under his mark-up. Electronics and video is not. This has always left both the GCs and the owners happy. It also allows me to speak freely about price without a cringing GC thinking hes getting screwed out of his P&O.

It took a while to come to this but after losing a few jobs because out of town guys came in and avoided the markup and created a disaster for both the GC and owners, we now have a system that benefits everyone.

No product list is even close... we're at stage one. The GC is actually a very nice guy and the client has authd' him to do cost plus. Client lives out of town except for three months a year. I explained to the GC ad infinitum that it would be impossible to give him a price until I had a detailed meeting with the client.

When I spoke with the client I mentioned everything he could possibly want for his 10,000 sq ft house... it all seemed cool to him so I e-mailed them two very detailed questionnaires to try to get going. Both took a month to come back to me... all the while, GC wants to get a whole house price together so he's hounding me. Not wanting to leave money on the table I gave him an upper upper end of lighting control, automation, distributed audio, structured wiring, etc. etc. etc. but again said "tell him its only a starting point because we're not nailed down to anything yet... no products, etc.

I think the client may feel that I tried to hit a home run and is now leery. I can't imagine what the conversation went like but it kills me to think of some novice (to AV anyway) builder trying to regurgitate what I told him and leaving out all sorts of pertinent information. I wish I had just refused to give out anything till I met with the clients. They bought me in to the fold due to the two other houses... just met their GC (this is the first one they are building) so I have told the GC that I'll work it out directly. I like your idea about nothing but the rough but the client wants to move in to a DONE house with no contractors in a few years... I guess he is just naive to the process.

Just lost a big one last week due to another bungling move so I'm on a real s--t streak. Perhaps my upcoming week in Maui will allow me to pull my head out of my ass.

rhm9,

My opinion…

1.So much in business is related to psychology and human nature. Part of human nature is that it is often difficult for us to say “no”. But saying no is one of the primary requisites for success in business.

2.Another factor, intimately relayed to # 1 above is that we often prefer to fail on someone else terms instead of taking a risk and failing or succeeding on our own. We do not want to “lose the sale” and do what we know we should not do and willingly and absurdly follow the lamb to the slaughter, rather than taking a risk and saying “no”.

Here’s where I am going with this. I think the first mistake you made was that you were afraid to say no and risk losing the sale and allowed the client and contractor to dictate the terms of how you do YOUR WORK! A common mistake we have all made at one time or another. A mistake it is not too late to correct. I would not have given them ANY budget to appease them. You did not have the necessary information to give them a proposal and that is what they should have been told. PERIOD! If you lose the sale for doing what’s right, you lose the sale. As professionals, we must always stand up for what we know to be right, and have to re-train ourselves so that our first reaction is to evaluate the situation and do what we think is right, even though it is often easier to say “yes” and give in. And saying no (when you should say no) is not only in your best interest, it’s is in the clients best interest as well. AND THAT’S THE ENTIRE KEY TO YOUR QUESTION.

You should have no doubt about the proper path to follow and fighting for what you know to be right because it is in the clients best interest and that’s exactly what you have to tell them. If your first concern is for your client and you advise them accordingly, and they choose not to listen, you should never have to lose any sleep over whether you lost a sale because you did what was right.

You have read my posts here before rhm9 blasting people for ranting about losing a sale to the Internet etc. and perhaps my above thoughts are why I feel the way I do. If you allow others to dictate how you operate, then you will likely end up angry and resentful. But if you simply stand firm and do what is right, you can roll with the punches and shouldn’t give a second thought to the guy that wants to purchase everything over the Internet. In fact, you’ll usually say no to quoting that guy in the first place. “No” is the key to happiness :-) :-) :-), otherwise we become victims of ourselves!

Now let’s look at the issue of psychology and human nature from the client’s perspective. Even though the client may often try to push us into something we do not want to do – like giving them a proposal based on incomplete information (a good example is a lighting proposal based on lighting plans that are half complete), most clients secretly/unknowingly love being told no – WHEN IT IS DONE CORRECTLY. Most clients are used to everyone wanting their money. It is very disconcerting AND pleasing for anyone but an egomaniac when someone says to them “I want very much to work with you but even if it means losing the project I cannot agree to what is being requested here because I do not think it is in your best interest”. Who could get upset at that? Only someone you do not want to work with!

I am not going to advise you exactly what to do because I do not know the situation well enough but I will tell you what I did in the project I referenced earlier in this thread. That project in fact also had a trusted and very good project manager (also a nice guy just like your GC) that was working as the client’s intermediary. After I had given the client my proposal, it was sifted through for some time. One of the important things we have to understand about the client/GC/project manager relationship is these guys often justify their existence by trying to appear as though they are working to save the client money. In this instance I received a call from the project manager asking me to modify my proposal because they were having a hard time doing an apples-to-apples comparison of all the proposals. This was after the client had already indicated to me that he was going with me and another piece of important information is that the client has frequent guests that must be able to operate the A/V system in their guest bedrooms without ever having used the system before. Anyhow, the project manager sent out a request to everyone to modify their proposals based on his spec so they could compare in his words "apples-to-apples". The spec included changing out the Crestron touchscreens I had proposed everywhere to Pronto remotes, as well as several other compromises. The “line” we were given was that after everyone had submitted apples-to-apples, we could always change back to Crestron touchscreens where appropriate. The other companies again obliged.

I reviewed the project managers specification and politely told him it would always be impossible to obtain a so-called “apples-to-apples" comparison unless every line item on every proposal was identical, and even then it would not really be possible. I informed him I did not agree with the spec, thought a system with Pronto’s for a system of this complexity (50 zones etc…,) was a mistake and would not re-submit my proposal.

I then sent a letter via Federal Express to the client. I complimented the project manager in my letter for doing an excellent job based on the fact that he was not an A/V expert, but explained that I would not be submitting a bid based on his specification. I informed the client that even if it meant losing the project I was not going to re-submit a new proposal because it would mean installing an inferior dysfunctional system. I received a call from the client requesting a meeting. I met with the client and presented my case and the client agreed to my terms. I am absolutely convinced that I would have not only seriously compromised my ability to get the project if I had ceded to the project managers demands, but even if I had done so and gotten the job, I would have had to spend the rest of the project trying to argue about why they needed Crestron touchscreens instead of Pronto's. Luckily I was able to remove the project manager from the decision with my letter and closed the project. I also think human nature comes into play here to - insofar as it's SO critical to set the tone for our relationships as early as possible. If I had caved here and sent in another proposal, it would have set the tone for the entire project. It's no different than dealing with an employee who starts being late. If you let it slide and go along with it, the next thing you know you have set a precedent for every other employee to observe.

In the mean time the other company that was my chief competition submitted another quote based on the spec and dropped their price by over 100K. They still didn’t get the job.

DO NOT ASSUME THAT WISE CLIENTS ONLY WANT YOU TO SAY YES, those are my words of wisdom :-).

Now having told that story I suppose my approach could have backfired. And I wouldn’t have lost a nights sleep over it because I knew I was doing the correct thing professionally for the client and myself.

A few final thoughts:

1. If you intend to do something like I did to catch the clients attention I have found that a short and professional letter sent via Federal Express is a good way to catch their attention. Send it to where ever you think it will most likely catch their attention. I often think their home is a good place because they will likely get it when they get home and read it when they are in a relaxed mood.

2. Be (intelligently) totally honest. Honesty can be disarming. Tell the client that you want to work with him, are nervous about having to contact him directly because of the delicate nature of the chain of comman...whatever. But that you feel you must spend some time both learning what he wants as well as presenting your proposal to him in order to perform your job correctly. It is this type of situation where I do not hesitate to take a risk and considering the low prices of air fare these days would probably offer to hop on a plane and meet with him for half a day reviewing things. I would likely do the same thing for submitting your proposal. Of course this assumes the payoff is worth the investment of your time and air fare but it sounds like it is. One more reason for him respect you. And will any one else offer that? Of course I would only do this type of thing when my judgement warrants it. If the guy is a "shopper" I'd NEVER do it. But you've done two houses for the guy so it sounds like you've got a relationship and if he's agreeing to let the GC have 15% of your contract he's definitely not a shopper. Lastly, from a human perspective, unless someone else really blows his socks off, it will likely obliagate the heck out of him to some extent.

3. Why do you assume the client is balking? Just because he or the project manager says he is :-)? You have to make the judgment call but that is so often a reflex action and a negotiating tactic.

4. Do not assume the client completely trusts the GC. Even if he completely trusts his work ethics, he may be well aware that he is not an expert in your realm. If you feel the need to talk directly with the client, you can refer to the GC respectfully, emphasize that you are in a tough position because you need to have a good relationship with everyone on the project so it runs smoothly, but also must be able to talk with him directly when you think it is necessary to serve his best interest. Again, how could a client get upset with you for that, at least one that is worth working with!

5. I would do everything possible to work with the GC every step of the way and have him know you value his management. It can be tricky but working on any large construction project is always political, isn’t it? IF I genuinely like a contractor, project manager, designer etc. and think they are doing a good job I always compliment them to the client repeatedly, especially for being team players and I think it usually gets back to them. I ended up getting along very well with the project manager on the job referenced above. There may be a few hiccups along the way but hopefully you can have your cake and eat it too.

Hope this helps.

This message was edited by QQQ on 02/13/05 11:27 ET.

Well said, Q