Last time I brought this up I killed what *was* a pretty lively thread - The silence was deafening...

[Link: remotecentral.com]

... "I think one of the single ugliest under-the-radar problems in this industry is that few (any?) manufacturers will reimburse contractors for the *labor* required to fix, swap/beta-test defective equipment in the field. This is my single most valuable inventory item... a finite number of irreplaceable labor hours.

Assuming we move closer to a service/labor business model with skinnier margins , this becomes more of a problem. If I had all the unbilled/uncollected labor $'s we've expended I'd be on a ski hill right now instead of in front of a computer.

I've successfully argued for reimbursement in special cases, but are there any manufacturers particularly good in this regard as a regular policy?"

The day that CEDIA does anything for the average installer as opposed to the manufacturer his representives, or itself will be the day of miricles; " On that day the Lord shall be One and his Name One. " Pay your dues and be prepaired to be bent over without even being kissed. To place one's hope in CEDIA is to demonstrate not only poor judgement but evidence of psychosis.

Products that suck may very well prove acceptable to me although it would depend on how it sucked. Number one on my list of factors is how well the product integrates so discrete codes, rear IR jacks or some sort of bidirectional protocol rank far higher than superior sound or picture quality. Does that mean that a Sampo would edge out a Fujitsu if the latter lacked those integration features? That would be a close call but given my sense that "value" is the number one criteria for customers and ease of use and reliability are a close second and third in importantance. Technical supiority is a value not as marketable as in the past even as it is still improtant to those of us installing these products. I just might ( Lord, forgive me ) specify the Sampo. Mercifully, I do not need to make that choice but how many of us have installed those horrid Sharp LCDs and they often lack both picture quality and control. My sense is that we would more probably have a LG vs Fujitsu quality issue as opposed to the Sampo. A company making such poor products would never include a feature set for such a small, niche market such as this one. And I would have no problem choosing a mid-fi product with control over a high end product that lacked it.

Alan

Here's another really good reason to the answers you've already received. What satellite receiver would you use right now that has discrete commands? Oh, that's right I forgot. It's 2004 but DirecTV is still living in the dark ages and doesn't have any satellite receivers with discrete commands.

And how many countless hours have we all spend having to research devices to even find out if they have the proper commands?

For those talking about a spec, if anyone really intends to work on this, there have already been some EXCELLENT specs written by some very knowlegeable people/groups including recommendations for how to implement an *good* RS-232 protocol. If someone really intends to work with Judi on this I might be able to dig something up on them.

i like the concept on the surface. pdp manufacturers are embracing the idea of meeting the isf's criteria.

I don't think the certification/recognition, etc. will have any value for consumers. The point would be to have a way that DEALERS could easily recognize products--and manufacturers would be encouraged to make products--that are integrator friendly.

Who is that wench?

eastonaltreee:
Sure it does cause manufacturers to be proactive. Marantz, for example, has all that you are requesting, including all discreet codes being on their website. I would argue that by taking business away from manufacturers who are not doing what you want AND clearly communicating to them why they are losing that business will motivate them to make the changes you want.

Doug:
Again, I would argue that the manufacturers who are not doing what you want do not deserve your business. Choose those who will help you and provide what you want.

QQQ:
Which would be why I use Dish Network. Now it would be VERY nice if they would provide the codes conveniently, but I can at least get them here.

Well, the above things sort of go without saying - I do give all of my business to companies that have discrete codes etc. The problem that you seem to be missing is that even if we let manufacturers "know" with our pocketbook, that doesn't actually mean they really do "know". It's all about awareness and REALLY letting them "know" which is what an official spec would do - and it would make them fearful and aware that integrators will not be specifiying their products unless they have the proper commands.

I have had numerous conversations with the often out of touch engineers at companies and many of them have never even heard of discrete commands!


Fine, but I can't use Dish because Dish will not put more than 6 receivers on one account, after that you have to pay the full fee again. That pretty much eliminates every job I do and even if our projects are large my clients usually don't care to have multiple accounts paying $500 a month for Dish when DirecTV will put 20 receivers on an account with no problem. So that means using DirecTV with power sensors.

it depends, I guess they can have different types of certification. Some ones crappy product might be someone else's perfect product. Also stuff like it works and wont blow up are hard to analyze. Do you get one or many working products to try. How long (what if it blows up after 3 months of use and "CEDIA" only tests for 2, what if it blows up if used continuously for 12 hours and "CEDIA" only tests stuff on a 7 hour interval?)



on the other hand I would like a certified rating system more then certification for
rs-323 or IR

for example for IR there can be

levels
0) no discrete inputs and power
1 a) power: on/off
1 b)inputs : all inputs
2) basic : = 1a+1b+ some more
3) basic toggle: anything that can be done with a toggle can be done discretely
4) complete : 3+ you can reach any menu item discretely and any limited menu item change discretely
5) complete +:4+ either
--- a) each item can then be easily and exactly changed ( i.e. let's say volume can have values from 0 to 30 you can send volume, 2,5 to get to 25, or brightness 1,3 to get to 13
--- b) have some presets for each menu option that are discrete and that you can set to what you want. (i.e. you can create a volume 20%,45%,70% for don't wake anyone up, normal and I want to feel the noise, same with brightness.....

let's be honest some discretes are more important then others in some installs, and you might not care if something only rates a 1a or 1b while for some other equipment at an other job you might want a 5 because the guy wants to change the iris from open to closed on the projector depending on what he is watching

PS I would also differentiate between RS-232 and IR, the most annoying thing is when they exist in RS-232 and you need IR and they are not there



have you looked at the Pronto forum and discrete code section forum. OK, they are not your average users, but there are countless of threads like what DVD should I buy that has discrete codes, or what TV is the most discrete friendly. I don't think it is a coincidence that more and more equipment have discrete codes, and I don't think it is only due to installers.

Could you please email me the phone numbers of these guys? Or even a couple of them? I think, frankly, that we need to start a thread in which we share these numbers and get a movement going to have several of us call and make our needs known.

Perhaps Sales Manager for a company would be good, too: I can't imagine anything that would shake a sales department like learning that their product cannot be used in higher-end installations, and will not be recommended, sold or installed by a bunch of people sending emails, because good control is lacking.

The thing is, this information has to somehow get translated and communicated overseas where the products are actually developed.

Two management generations and one buy-out back, when the chief engineer at Xantech was an ex-boss of mine and I knew several of their technical staff, I brought up this issue with them. They said they were always working with manufacturers, but they somehow would never let me have numbers so I could give these people my point of view.

As for RS232 simplicity, I remember the Vidikron VPF50HD, which had one page of hex commands that covered EVERYTHING, versus JVC's still-current DILA commands, which are concealed in a 63-page document that explanation how and why they construct their codes, but does not list a single actual code.

RCGEEK, I agree, if no one buys their products because they are hard to work with (no discretes) they will get the picture or go out of business. On the other hand I also agree with Q that sometimes it is easier said then done and there are other reasons that might make it impossible.

Q: I agree that some of the Engineers might be a bit out of it. But let's face it, it is not just the engineers and they are probably the last that need convincing. As an engineer you have to build what your boss is asking for. Since discrete codes don't cost anything the engineer can decide to add some to what he is building, but that engineer is gone or a different set of engineers is working on the other device and you are screwed. What needs to be done is make sure that the big boss knows about them and knows what we want, then he can pass it along down the line to the engineers and they can add them. Look at the companies praised for discretes, with all of them it came as a decision from the top.

If we had a couple of certifications say

Cedia Certified (all the discrete IR, I am not going to go into it in detail here)

and

Cedia Certified + 232 (All the IR and 232)

That would be enough, I don't think it would matter if it was badged on crappy equipment. It would even be nice, imagine asking a customer who says he wants a remote if he has a CEDIA badge on his crappy rcvr or not. If he does you know what you need to, you don't have to start searching forums and lists etc. you go there, program and leave. You would be able to quote remote programming for customers who are supplying all of their equipment if it is all cedia badged.

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Russound

Actually sent me a letter that there was a issue with one of their AV 6in-out switchers, and asked how I would like to be compensated for the time to swap it out, credit or mail me a check.

No need to argue, I agree with you. The problem is plasmas & LCDs. They change models so often & the things we need change from model to model. Show me a company that doesn't do that, and has all the sizes in both colors for a reasonable price, and doesn't hire grade-school dropouts to field tech questions. NEC is the only one we've found that's close.

Doug @ HomeWorks

As we all know, WE TELL THE CUSTOMER WHAT TO BUY. High-end retail is dead, at least around here. Our profession will continue to flourish in the future because the gear is simply too complicated to hook up for the average consumer. That said, wise manufacturers will realize this and snap to attention when faced with a program like this.