So, in all these years I have been hard pressed to see and hear a difference in picture and sound quality when it comes to surge protection and line conditioning.

Admittedly, 95% of all of our systems have been mid-Fi (Yamaha, PSB, Niles, Mitsubishi TV's etc.). No Runco, Krell..

Some stuff like low end Pioneer, JVC and Sony (non elite etc) sound no better no matter what we do.

We have yet to have success improving a picture on a Samsung DLP - interconnects, surge protection, prayer.. ever.

We put basic surge protection on everything - Monster Stage 1, Panamax basic stuff.
When weve spec'd out and put in the real pricy stuff my eyes and ears tell me I need to start drinking before I can honestly tell the difference (and I don't drink).

If the house does get a direct hit (or God plants a bolt within the neighborhood) the first thing the homeowner does after seeing all the toast is call the insurance agent - not the Monster claims department. I have never seen an 8 gauge wire divert a million volts of electricity.

I've seen brown outs do some damage yet that doesn't seem to be the protection push.

Please enlighten me

No, you cannot see or hear a difference, but many people believe they do. It's called the placebo effect.

Sometimes the addition of a surge protector or power conditioner can markedly improve things but it's ONLY because it's solving a problem, not "making things better". Usually the same improvement could be observed with a $3 ground defeater, because placing everything on one surge protector or power conditioner can under certain circumstances eliminate ground loops. People see that and think "this thing is a miracle"!

www.surgex.com

www.apc.com

Plenty of info on these site to enlighten you further. I have a client with 250K in his 3 theaters and nothing was damaged when his house took a direct lightning hit and toasted his alarm, two A/C units and 3 wall dimmers.

This gear protects like a mofo!

Oh yeah, You will NOT see or hear any difference. Anyone that tells you different is full of it.

Hey now, this is a multi zillion dollar business. You mean we are putting this stuff in because it (the product not the picture & sound) is a cool looking chrome plated gas pedal? We used to call this GP circuitry (gross profit) back in the old days at The Federated Group.

Seriously, anyone out there seen or heard marked improvement? I agree with QQQ, but am hoping I'm just ignorant.

Here are a few of my observations...

I have never seen or heard any drastic improvement with any products. I have seen a slight difference in the black level of a cheap plasma with a Richard Grays Power Co product at their training. They played a clip from Finding Nemo with the GRPC plugged in and then took it out and played the same clip. The picture did look slightly washed out w/o the RGPC. This is apparently measurable with gray scale calibration test equipment.
The thinking is that the plasma is trying to use more current than the outlet can deliver. Apparently the RGPC can deliver reserve current when the demand is high. Does the difference warrant using a $799 RGPC (or up) on a $3000 plasma? Thats a tough sell. We do use these in larger systems and offer as an option in smaller ones.

As far as the other products (Monster, Panamax, etc...). I have never seen ANY improvement of anything with these. If anything, the surge protection limits the available current, which is a bad thing. Surge protection on these units is very limited. I do not believe they will stop any serious spike. They do nothing for brown outs (under current). And the "lifetime" warranty and "connected equipment" warranty is a joke. Try making a claim on any of these. These are nothing but marketing.

Should we use some form of protection? I think so, even on a small system we spec in entry level Monster Power. Past that I think you need to spend alot of money on something like RGPC which can deliver more current and has non-current limiting surge protection. Its all of the mid-priced ($200-$1000) stuff I have a problem with. I think it brings no benenfit to a system.

I agree with Studiocats1 that SurgeX is excellent.

I have heard a number of horror stories about people with Monster brand surge suppressors, and their inability to get paid on a claim.

I have used Tripplite IsoBar products, and found them to be successful when used properly. When living in Michigan, twice the above ground power line outside our house was hit by lightning. (Close to Lake Michigan, some really tall power poles right on the bluff were up quite high, with nothing else around higher.) Both times I had other devices in the house fail... dimmers, and oven controls. The Tripplite IsoBar's sacrificed themselves, and successfully protected all the attached electronics. The units seem well made inside, and use MOV's and Varistors to protect against both common mode and differential surge. I have been careful to make sure all connections are protected. I make sure phone lines, cable tv / sat / antenna, even Ethernet, are protected as well. I like the IsoBar line because they offer solutions to protect all these from the same manufacturer. (If a claim does arise, they can't play games with which manufacturer is going to pay!)

After the first time I was hit, my neighbor who lost several things decided to go with the IsoBar's as well. Second time around, he did lose a computer power supply, and he told me Tripplite didn't give him a hard time about the repair cost.

As far as benefits of power conditioning, I've seen power conditioning help in two circumstances. One was a friend of mine who was getting a large amount of noise conducted over the power line. We could hook an oscilloscope up, set it for AC coupled, and see the noise easily... on the order of 5V peak to peak! His audio and video equipment sounded much better after a line conditioner. I built several simple low pass filters (Just a Series Inductor chosen to Roll off above 500Hz), and hooked them between the wall and equipment. You could probably buy the equivalent for about $50.

The second instance was a friend that was noticing noise in his video. After checking for ground loops, and temporarily disconnecting some grounds, found this was not the problem. Looked at the AC, and noticed that he had only 105VAC at the outlet. He purchased a UPS that performed line voltage correction from APC, and his problem went away. The UPS was only about $200.

i have seen it clean up noise before. i was a doubter too before i saw it first hand.

Don't waste your time with Monster or Panamax if you want to actually get a claim paid.

If you are looking for better performance go with Richard Grey, APC, or SurgeX. These can and do make a difference, but not in every situation. Also, these are not miracle products. The will deliver small levels of improvement that can be appreciated when all other steps have been taken to ensure the best possible picture and sound.

I can't believe the things people say here, sometimes... OK, so interconnects don't make a difference, power conditioning doesn't make a difference, and we're all out to rip off the customer?!?!?!?!

Sorry for the rant... I just can't take it anymore! Go into a room with some interconnects, and you will hear a difference! Go into a room with some power centers, and you will hear a difference! Try out some isolation plates - yeah those crazy audiophile heavy plates to put your equipment on, or some of those special feet to raise the CD off of the shelf. They make a difference! Try out those crazy racks from Solid Tech - they make a difference!

I carefully avoided saying 'they make it better', because they quite frequently don't!!! However, there is simply no denying that they make a difference... good or bad. You need to try out different combinations and see what works.

Obviously, this stuff also depends on scale... Don't hang $2k in power protection off of a $399 receiver, use common sense, but PLEASE don't go around saying it's all snake oil!!!

Sorry again - I'll try not to post this late at night for a while...

Norm

I've gone into so many homes over the years and have seen $600 worth of cables and surge protection for a surround system in a box. Snake oil - from people that give us a bad name.

I'm past that. What I'm talking about is a $5-7k plasma or $3-4k DLP with a $600 - 1200 receiver, PSB, Deftechs, M&K's or some decent in walls. A faroudja chipped DVD... That really makes an above average system for the great unwashed - and probably what most of us would consider our bread and butter. What kind of improvements can we include to really maximize quality picture & sound - protection and cabling wise? That both we and they will notice?

There is a difference in surge protection. Equipment like Richard Gray's not only removes RF and EMI noise, which can be audible in a system with the volume turned down, but they they provide better surge protection. Cheap surge protectors use a circuit called an MOV (metal-oxide varister). This type of circuit can absorb a single surge. Once the circuit has "popped" it no longer provides protection. Units from Richard Gray's Transparent Audio, and newer products from APC use better components and advanced circuitry to better protect a system. I am familiar with the Richard Gray's and Transparent products, and can tell you that they work nice because in addition to providing protection, they do not limit current, which is important if you are using a good amp. Today's electronics incorporate power supplies that can operate under varying voltage conditions, but these varying voltages can affect component performance. It's most obvious with a device like a plasma and its grayscale and black levels.
I am not as familiar with Furman and Surgex, but I hear they are nice. I know that Furman has roots in the pro music industry and its components can be found in the rack systems of guitar players such as Eddie Van Halen, Alex Lifeson and Steve Vai.
From the dealer's perspective this category isn't as sexy as plasma displays or subwoofers for example, but as an earlier post noted one surge can destroy an entire rack of equipment. If the client blames the installer that installer will lose referrals and potential clients. This is a death blow to any small business. The benefits are twofold with a quality surge protector: proper protection for a client's equipment and better revenue streams.
Depending on the product, the margins for these products are 40 to 50 points. Surge protectors and good cabling should be part of a standard bid.
The Spring EHX show in Orlando (Feb. 24-26) will have a seminar taught by Joe Perfito of Tributaries and Josh Clark of Transparent on cabling and power conditioning. Additionally, Richard Gray's will have a demo room (with Thiel, Bryston and Sharp) at the show. I highly recommend speaking with Josh or Brad O'Toole from Transparent (Transparent will be demoing gear with Meridian) or Dick McCarthy of Richard Gray's.
These guys will answer any question, and what's cool about Josh is that he is the engineer that designs Transparent's line of power products. Josh and Joe will discuss how to sell these products and the technology behind cabling and power conditioning.

This message was edited by bob archer on 02/09/05 11:05 ET.

agreed, on the RFI and EMI. Also the smp/sub outlets are nice on the surge protector. On many surge protectors they have large caps to keep reserves for the power amps. This was common in my HT when the bass would hit. With the Panamax 5500 there is no light dim when the sub hits. Clean power is important. RFI and EMI can cause horrible hum, but it might not alwasy be audible. My company uses the panamax 5500 and the 5300 on all higher end HT.

Mike