Wallmart is an evil company that wants all the monopoly laws to go away so they can take over the planet.

So you can assume that I DO NOT shop there.


[Link: fastcompany.com]

I too will not shop at Walmart

The

I guess that my obvious next question would be.....

Other then the trade show, the very much not free training and the maudlin installer olympics, what good is CEDIA?

We're having a discussion pertaining to how our livelyhood is being squashed by multi-billion dollar companies, and we can't rely on our trade association for any help in the matter?

While reading this one thing kept popping into my head.

I think both we as the community of installers and the manufacturers/retailers are grossly overestimating the public.


How many times are our tail feathers ruffled with another promise by X manu. marketed by Y retailer that Z product will merge and simplify all AV needs. They never pan out, not for the whole public. I am not saying our industry, market will always be the same, but human nature will be.

I own a lawnmower. I have gas in the shed. I even have an afternoon occasionaly open to mow my yard. I am capable of firing up the mower and can dispose of the clippings when done. Nonetheless I still pay the $50 for the professionals to come twice a month and I can concentrate on my world, maximize my earnings.

Many people look at there AV system as their yard, want it stylin', but don't want to put an iota of effort to get it there.

There will always be DIY'ers. Some are my best customers. You just have to learn to avoid the parasites.

Alan said:

Which means you are moving to a labor only business model. If you are fixing a system whose equipment was sold by someone else you are implicitly accepting the concept that the client can purchase his equipment on his own and pay us to install and program it.

Damn straight. Labor does not make the business model work.... My goal, labor collected pays for itself, equipment sales makes life possible.

Walmart is insidious, but mostly for the social decay it causes. It's business model is obviously through concerted efforts to reduce wages and benefits not just for their employees at their stores but by dominating communities reduce wages for large segments of other workers employed at competing stores. Soon large segments can only afford to buy at Walmart and ad nauseum.

Steve I think you are overexagerating to make your case...


You can buy switches off the shelf that are unmanaged. If you can install a dumb hub, you can install a unmanaged switch. Netgear, Linksys, D-link, and others all make them. No programming necessary.

First off, audio is generally compressed for most solutions out there. Netstreams will take your compressed audio, and uncompress it. How convenient.
Uncompressed SD video is 4-5Mbs out of a DVD player, but in reality most of the storage systems out there will compress it alot more than that. HD video, also compressed, is max 19Mbs, so you were close on that one.

True, so pay an extra $75 at CompUSA and buy the switch instrad of the hub. Joe "DIY" consumer will have figured this out by the time he gets all his C4 gear installed, as well as networked Tivos etc.

If you truely understand how a switch works, then I think you would know that there is something else wrong here. The switch should have learned that the traffic between netstream box A and netstream box B is private traffic, and does not need to also go to the port where your level 1 router is. The switch fabric will create a private conversation betyween the Request and the router, as not to disturb the netstream system traffic. Even a crap ass unmanaged switch can handle this. I don't know what netstreams uses as a buffer size, or what IP protocol they are using, but it doesn't sound robust enough to me from what you are saying.

I can stream a video (320x240), and two sources of CD quality compressed audio, all coming from the extremely unpredictable internet, and send all that through a level 1 router, and a daisy chained level 1 hub for one segment, and not drop audio or video.
A control packet of some sort is by nature, very small. It does not sit around for 3 to 5 seconds. If it didn't get acknwoledged in milliseconds, it dropped or collided or whatever, and will go again automatically, probably before I even lift my finger from the light switch. Anything short of that is crappy software, not architechural problems.

To put things in perspective, I wait much longer for my dammed compact flouresent bulbs to light up than I would ever wait for an ethernet packet to get through to a controller.

I'm not saying you are completely off base, just that LAN congestion is not some impending doom on the industry the way you make it sound. Demand for bandwith goes up, so network equipment gets faster.

But back on topic to C4....

So my take on C4 in Tweeters is that it is a good thing.

Smarthome.com has ruled the DIY home control market for some time. Now we all like to rag on X10 and all that, justifyably so, but alot of people buy that stuff. It has a greater market penetration than Crestron and AMX combined. Maybe not in dollars, but in number of homes, yes. (I've seen a double wide with X10, but never a Crestron)
Radioshack, and no doubt Walmart, Home Depot, and others sell some level of X10 gear, which is the foot in the door to home automation.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... Microsoft is making inroads to your living room, and your smart internet enabled house. It may be a matter of time before we see the Microsoft home automation controller for the masses. Ah but along comes Control4, a real candidate that might be able to capture the DIY crowd before Microsoft makes serious moves.

So you see, C4 is saving us from Microsoft. :) Yay C4!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

The best thing about Microsoft is that I don't think that there's a single person left in the world who loves them. In fact, almost everyone that I know despises them and wishes that they had alternatives to buying their products.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that Tweeter had gone public with their intention to move away from a retail oriented business model to one based more heavily in the custom install side. From my understanding they are even changing the way their strores are laid out and marketing behind it. I think I saw this in TWICE magazine a few weeks back.

Now there's a classic marketing aproach!!!

Remodel the store and, all of the sudden, the "installers" will know how to make it work!!

It takes a lot of experience to do this type of thing eficiently. If the consumer isn't able to set it up,or the installer with 2 hours of training, I hope that they will be ready to except the higher labor rate of a dedicated pro to make it work like they wer're told it would.

If Cedia isnt doing shit for us other than offering us the chance to "PAY" and see new products or get trained on how to sell the million dollar job in the trailer park, why are we all members?

I do not use their website, and i have never received a call from someone flipping through the directory (other than some spam and people trying to sell me there own automation products).

I joined due to the fact i felt the presure to say i was a "Cedia" member - but it really doesnt mean shit now does it.

IMO Tweeter is taking a HUGE risk on Control4. I attended training in Salt Lake this past week. They don't have ANY shipping products yet.

Dave

Note: My opinion expressed here is just my own. I am not speaking for my employer.

I have had major issues with CEDIA for years. If you want to see what in my opinion shows contempt for their members, go to their web site and go through the sigh-up process. They require an E-mail address and as part of the agreement they inform you that you MUST consent for them to sell your contact info in order to become a member. Have they heard of the fact that we are in the 21st century and that every other company on the face of the earth allows you to opt out if you don't want to receive a ton of marketing crap. Of course you can give them a false E-mail, but then they have a false E-mail on file for you and why the hell should you have to do that?

Facinating how threads morph and mutate. When I was in grad school I did my thesis on the FCC. Spent far too much time reading the literature on organizations, trade groups and oversight bodies. In short, the overwhelming evidence is that the largest players quickly "capture" and gain control of these organizations and the organizations do everything and anything to try to perpetuate themselves; the darwinian will to survive of inatimate objects.

Look at who founded the organization and look at the motives of those individuals. Look at who the volunteer leaders of CEDIA are. Why would a trade organization supposedly representing the interests of custom installation firms permit manufactuerers and rep firms to be members? Might not there be a difference betwen the snakes ( reps ) who do little or nothing for that 5% commision they earn save to use their power to open distributorships and the installation firms they sell to? Might a manufacturers' interests and those of a small shop be different? Think there might be a conflict between traditional bricks and mortar salons and retail stores and discount retailers and a custom shop, even a large one?

What ever you feel about his politics, few Ralph Naders walk the earth. Selfless individuals who devote their lives to others or to a cause are so rare that when they are Catholic they become cannonized. Most people are so selfish that they only devote themselves to their own self-interest even if they are men or women of the cloth. A few individuals do volunteer their time for short periods of time but my experience with voluneer organizations, both religious and secular, is that a very tiny per centage of participants actually perform any work while most consume passively. Ever step into a church kitchen and try and do something without the permission of the Queen bee? Even among those who volunteer there is often some neurotic component, not a selfless one motivating their participation. CEDIA is an organization devoted to a) itself and its self interest. b) manufacturers of any type that wish to sell to this market c) large custom shops. They have no interest in a small firm and have few if any policies to help that individual save offering classes. And those classes at best scratch the surface allowing you at best to be dangerous and more typically they merely make you aware of a subject and provide you with only enough infromation to go forth and educate yourself. I have actually benefitted far more from manufacturer training than any CEDIA course I ever took.

We are far too dispersed and busy.REM9 even has the tools but still hires the landscaping company to mow his lawn. Think he has the time or finances to travel to organize a trade association? How many of us would volunteer to be on the board of CEDIA? What would happen to our companies if we spent the amount of time required to be on the exec board of our trade organization. Money equals power in life and big time politics. In small time politics it is no different. We can complain but is there a solution? I asked a question about Walmart earlier. Some of us may not shop at Walmart but Studiocat1 and I have an advantage in that there is no Walmart in the NYC area. Most Americans have voted with their feet or they would not be the largest retailer in the economic history of our country. Short term thinking or no thinking leads to long run problems. Just as shopping in Walmart will ultimately lead to the transformation of these United States into a nation with 3rd world wage scales supporting CEDIA, if you are a small firm, is to support policies that will lead to your ultimate demise. Read the article in the link Studiocat1[ sorry, it was QQQ's link] supplied. The Control4 boys are suggesting that this business needs to move to a minimum size of 10 million dollars. I would bet that few, if any owners here, have the business accumen to run such a large organization. And personally, why would I want to? What I love most about this business is also what I hate; the choas. I like to problem solve and to confront different challanges every day. If I had to cease being a field animal I might as well use my degrees and teach.

Alan

This message was edited by Audible Solutionns on 01/22/05 11:01 ET.

Alan, there are a few things in your post that I think may be a little off base. But your points on CEDIA volunteers are right on.

Considering the number of past CEDIA presidents that have gone bankrupt in the 24 months following thier tenure, I have no idea why anyone would want that job.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, if you look at CEDIA's actions almost every single one has had one purpose in mind - the perpetuation od CEDIA (i.e. that's much more important than the good of the membership). And why should that be surprising? They are for those that don't know simply an outside marketing corporation that gets paid to run "CEDIA" (of course they are responsible to the board of directors).

The way they now list those who have the most CEDIA certified employees at the top of the web site searches is a perfect example. Could there possibly be a more overt way to encourage members into sending their employees to training (i.e which makes money for CEDIA pepetuating them?

It may seem petty but one of my beefs has always been how ALL the advertisements in magazines that are targeted at consumers have the little "FM" thing for founding members next to their names. If this organization is for the good of us all, why are they trying to elevate "FM's" above regular members? Doesn't that seem like something that is intrinsically opposed to the supposed altruistic goals of the organization

And you are right Alan, this forum desperately needs a spell checker.