Hello all.

I have a client who is doing a large renovation on his house and he has a request that I feel is a bit strange, but it's a real hot button for him so I need to make this work.

What he wants:
-main floor living room with a 5.1 system. (living room is open to kitchen/dining/office as part of open concept design)

-he has parties where friends will connect a laptop/mixer into this main system and DJ, sometimes adding live instruments like a guitar or keyboard - he already has the set up he uses for this, with an analogue audio output that will go into the receiver, which he currently uses.

-the adjoining office will have a receiver and bookshelf speakers

-the adjoining kitchen/dining will have four speakers, how they will be powered is TBD, likely with a simple 2 ch amplifier.

-the basement will have a bathroom with a JBL blue tooth speaker (with AUX in)

-his bedroom will have a Bose Wave Radio which has an AUX in

-the garage will have a receiver with a pair of tower speakers, which will eventually be expanded to include some outdoor speakers.


-he wants all zones of the system to be included, including the Wave Radio and the Bluetooth speaker (although these two are nice to haves - not deal breakers)

When we first started talking I was thinking that this was easy... 6 zones of Sonos/HEOS/Musicast and we call it a day. The issue is that because he wants the ability to hear a live instrument being played along with music that there can be absolutely no delay between any of the systems, at least the three zones on the main floor. It's my belief that as soon as we introduce multiple zones of networked audio there will be delays.

What he wants me to do is take an analogue output from the back of the receiver and distribute it around the house to the various systems so that he can feed them all with as undelayed a signal as possible.

We discussed the caveats of this including complicated control, dueling volume controls etc. It doesn’t bother him. This is his dream, so I'm going to help him get there.

So here's what I'm thinking:

Main Living Room system based on a new Yamaha receiver which has Z2 and Z3 capabilities.

Z2 feeds the Living/Dining powered by a 2ch amplifier.





Z3 feeds a distribution amp, here are a couple of options.

This is a 1x8 distribution amp from RDL:

[Link: rdlnet.com]

I can probably convince him he doesn't need to fee the signal to the JBL speaker in the bathroom. Then we can use the 1x4 from RDL which is WAY less expensive)


This is a 1x6 head phone distribution amp from RDL.

[Link: rdlnet.com]


ART makes a 1x6 head phone amp:
[Link: artproaudio.com]


To be honest I don't know if a head phone amp will work in this application but they are a lot cheaper than the 1x8 from RDL.


From there I would feed each receiver/alternate system through some Baluns over CAt6. These ones include ground isolation and IR so he can use a universal to turn all of the receivers on and off from the one location. (I'm planning a ProControl Pro24r for control of the main system and will address the outputs to the other receivers to be part of a party macro). Runs of cable will mostly be about 40-50ft.

[Link: store.calrad.com]


For regular non-house party music on the main floor he can use the App and Musicast and group together Z1 and Z2 to include the main system and kitchen/dining. Pretty easy as far as control goes.


I feel like this is the simplest way to do this. It's a bit of a trip back in time as far as audio distribution goes but it will accomplish what he wants. Its just been so long since I've come at a system from this angle that i thought I would throw it out to you guys.


Here is a list of equipment that he currently has and plans to use. This is all gear that he really likes.

Garage: Angstrom tower speakers and sub-woofer, Yamaha RX-V750

Basement Bathroom: JBL Extreme Blue-tooth speaker

Basement Bedroom: Bose Wave Radio

Office: pair of Elac Debut B5 bookshelf speakers, Yamaha RX-V673

Kitchen Dining: 2 pairs Elac Debut B5 bookshelf speakers, power TBD

Main Living Room: 5.1 system based on new Yamaha receiver with Z2/Z3, speakers TBD, his mixer and laptop.

Thanks.

Craig

You have it all figured out, sounds like what you are going to do will work.

I will say this however - I would NOT sell him the equipment.
Having live instruments plugged into a 'non pro audio' sound system, is a disaster waiting to happen. Even if his mixer has the appropriate DSP (compression, limiter, subsonic filters, etc.) to keep from blowing out the consumer equipment. There is no guarantee he or whoever touches it, knows or understands how to use it properly. One performance with the wrong setup and kiss those speakers and/or amp goodbye - TOAST!

If he wants to play mad scientist, make sure he does it with his equipment and with his dime. You just get paid your time in hooking it all up properly. The little extra money on the equipment is not worth the nightmare that could happen from this one day, if someone is not careful or doesn't know what they are doing while operating it.

I think saying "RTFM" will be a waste of time on this client- this isn't going to be an easy system to operate for someone who's not a tech-head. I would can the BT speakers and use something easy, like Sonos (even though I don't like their BS marketing tactics)- I like HEOS more, but it's not always as easy and in a complex system, I would expect O'Toole's Corollary to Murphy's Law to show up ("Murphy was an optimist"). I would also limit and compress the crap out of the audio in order to prevent killing speakers.

I don't think there's any way to eliminate delays if the direct sound of the instrument(s) can be heard in other zones unless all doors and windows can be closed to block the sound.

We are on the same page. I already told him this is not pro-audio and what he’s planning is a major risk. And that I assume no responsibility.

I also like HEOS.

My first suggestion is as to do this with HEOS/Sonos/Musicast.

As far as the delays go I educated him that even if we can avoid delays going into the equipment that as he moves through the house inevitably there will be issues. He is aware and really is concerned about it being perfect on the main floor.

If we run this into a HEOS link for example, as soon as drag in the other two zones the system will introduce a delay to sync them up.

He will likely end up with HEOs as sources down the toad for regular use, but for this DJ thing I think I need to stick with a distribution amp if only for that.

Sounds like you are way over complicating this. why aren't you just using a mixer and an audio matrix?

Something I didn’t think of. Can you give me an example of a product you have in mind?

Something like this perhaps? It’s way more expensive than I want (as if that matters, haha) but it’s the first one I could think of.

[Link: keydigital.org]

Trying to do something goofy like this is never a good idea....

Trying to do something goofy like this "Cheap" is downright insane.

I would take something like a Shure SCM262 and feed its analog output into a matrix like you linked. I do COntrol4 so I would usually use the 8x8 or 24x24 Control4 Matrix.

I appreciate you taking the time to add that.

He already has a mixer. And if I’m running out of his main living room receiver then I don’t really see the need for the matrix. We are only trying to distribute sources that originate in the living room to the other areas. The RDL piece should be quite good. I have used their product many times and have never been let down.

My main concern is, as others have pointed out, the risky plan he has to introduce a live instrument to this system via his mixer. I don’t see music from his DJ software being an issue.

If the system will continue to use consumer equipment, add the compressor/limiter as a separate, locked box -- beyond the control of an amateur DJ.

Also, explain how fast sound travels and that, even if all of the speaker outputs are time aligned, there will be acoustic delays between areas that might be audible. In some cases you may be able to cope with acoustic delays by adding audio delay -- similar to what is done in large live venues.

In some respects it seems like the customer wants to be in charge of the project and use you as the wire man. Unfortunately, the customer is attached to his inappropriate consumer gear.

I think that he will be best served by whatever matrix and control system that you like. Hopefully, the system will provide access to online music. I'm not using it and I don't see much mention of MusicCast on RC, but it seems like a capable system and it will have name recognition for the customer.

The 5.1 rooms will be a thorn in any case because the A/V units will add their own brand of processing delay. Sometimes this can be eliminated with a "Direct" setting that can be used during DJ events. Setting Direct Mode would be just another task for the control system or human who sets up for parties.

As you described the mind-numbing possibilities and possible complications of this system, I was reminded of an extremely simple system that used to run statewide in California. Like throughout the house you're talking about, but STATE WIDE!

The members (rooms in your system) were used auto parts yards, some ten to twenty of them, all live (rhymes with"alive") all the time to monitor and to call into. Each location had a push-button mic for announcing into the pool, a speaker for monitoring the pool, and of course interconnection with everyone else.

Apply this concept to your site. Anyone could feed audio into the pool, and amps at all locations would play the instantly mixed audio of all feeds. Experience with the system would teach the users what the volume levels should be for proper operation.

Before proper operation we have how to construct the pool. Here I envision feed amps of some low impedance output, high enough in impedance to keep from attenuating the pool signal too much. Everything from this point on is experimentation to create a system where signal can feed into a pool and that same signal is of a level appropriate to listen to the pool signal.

You may also have to learn how to eliminate local sidetone....

We have discussed what settings he will have to use in the 5.1 system in order to avoid delays.

Dante and be done.

https://www.audinate.com

Please let us know what you chose to do on this project.


Edit: I see in my hurry I missed something.
For some reason I thought he wants to plug in instruments in more than one location and have them all work together. Nope.

not trying to be an ass but this is all kinds of effed up!!!!! you should throw AT THE LEAST a DBX zonepro in there.