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Topic:
Our medical system is unsalvagable
This thread has 99 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 45.
Post 31 made on Saturday February 9, 2019 at 10:48
highfigh
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On February 9, 2019 at 10:38, Mac Burks (39) said...
I would have showed them a photo of soldiers storming the beaches of Normandy and asked them to repeat the line about 24 year olds and responsibility.

The Milwaukee Police Department lost an officer this week, shot in the chest by a round from a high power rifle while executing a search warrant with the Tactical Squad, on someone who was selling guns and drugs. He was a 17 year veteran of the department and had served two tours with the Marines in Iraq. He was 35 years old and leaves behind a wife and 4 year old child. He joined the MPD when he was 18.

I wonder what the doctor would say about his sense of responsibility.

[Link: odmp.org]
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 32 made on Saturday February 9, 2019 at 18:49
davidcasemore
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On February 8, 2019 at 03:26, Mac Burks (39) said...
To be clear here...the Tylenol's $125 line item on your hospital invoice isn't about what Tylenol costs. It's about running a facility where professionals with very expensive degrees are available to diagnose issues and prescribe medication like Tylenol.

There is another reason for the high cost - the uninsured who use the ER because they are now so sick from being untreated for something that would have been easily treatable had they had health insurance to go see a doctor. Now they are on death's door and the rest of us have to pick up the cost.

This is why universal health care is needed. You can call it Socialism, Medicare-for-All, Kenyan Care, Single-Payer - it doesn't matter. The two biggest costs to our current health care scheme are the uninsured and the bureaucratic costs involved in processing the insurance claims. These go away with universal coverage. Other factors are the student loans which force doctors to have to charge so much, the pharmaceutical industry (and their false claims about R&D which is actually done for them by our universities), as well as American's wanting to have an MRI facility on every corner. Oh, and the cost of end-of-life care where 90% of your health care costs are spent in the last couple of years of your life. We treat our pets better - Let Granny Go!

And I love at the SOTU he (I can't say, or make fun of his name) tosses out the bone of "Socialism - BAD!"

Socialism in the USA:

- Our Military
- Social Security
- Medicare and Medicaid
- Police and Fire Departments
- The Veterans Administration
- Public Parks, Toilets, Drinking Fountains
- Public Libraries
- Public Schools and Universities
- Roads and Highways
- Water and Sewer Systems

And that doesn't include Corporate Socialism/Welfare (which the Republicans think is just awesome):

- Tax subsidies for relocating businesses (I'm talking to you, Amazon)
- Sports Stadiums
- Food stamps and welfare for WORKING people at low-paying jobs (I'm talking to you, Walmart)
- Hedge Fund Managers (The REAL Welfare Queens)

Democratic Socialism does not equal Communism, Fascism, or Collectivism.
Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time!
Post 33 made on Saturday February 9, 2019 at 22:35
buzz
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Another factor is the cost of litigation or fear of litigation. A major cost center for the medical community is insurance.

Yes, we need to change our end of life thinking. I knew a fellow with terminal cancer. He had been through all of the then state of the art procedures and experimental trials, the end was near, everyone knew it, he wanted to die at home. Then on one particularly bad night, he was whisked to the hospital and thrown into intensive care. Likely he would not have survived the night without the tubes and frantic things done in intensive care. As best he could, he asked that this not be done, but his last wish was ignored. About a week later he died in the intensive care unit. I wonder how many lives could have been positively impacted if the resources tied up in that final week could have been diverted to preventive medicine or treating conditions that could have been cured with relatively simple procedures that were out of reach for the uninsured or uneducated.
Post 34 made on Sunday February 10, 2019 at 10:49
highfigh
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On February 9, 2019 at 18:49, davidcasemore said...
There is another reason for the high cost - the uninsured who use the ER because they are now so sick from being untreated for something that would have been easily treatable had they had health insurance to go see a doctor. Now they are on death's door and the rest of us have to pick up the cost.

This is why universal health care is needed. You can call it Socialism, Medicare-for-All, Kenyan Care, Single-Payer - it doesn't matter. The two biggest costs to our current health care scheme are the uninsured and the bureaucratic costs involved in processing the insurance claims. These go away with universal coverage. Other factors are the student loans which force doctors to have to charge so much, the pharmaceutical industry (and their false claims about R&D which is actually done for them by our universities), as well as American's wanting to have an MRI facility on every corner. Oh, and the cost of end-of-life care where 90% of your health care costs are spent in the last couple of years of your life. We treat our pets better - Let Granny Go!

And I love at the SOTU he (I can't say, or make fun of his name) tosses out the bone of "Socialism - BAD!"

Socialism in the USA:

- Our Military
- Social Security
- Medicare and Medicaid
- Police and Fire Departments
- The Veterans Administration
- Public Parks, Toilets, Drinking Fountains
- Public Libraries
- Public Schools and Universities
- Roads and Highways
- Water and Sewer Systems

And that doesn't include Corporate Socialism/Welfare (which the Republicans think is just awesome):

- Tax subsidies for relocating businesses (I'm talking to you, Amazon)
- Sports Stadiums
- Food stamps and welfare for WORKING people at low-paying jobs (I'm talking to you, Walmart)
- Hedge Fund Managers (The REAL Welfare Queens)

Democratic Socialism does not equal Communism, Fascism, or Collectivism.

It's not only the ones who are on death's door who burden the ERs, it's people who go there for stubbed toes, a headache, splinter, etc. We should have more clinics spread around that are meant to handle minor ailments and care, leaving the hospitals to deal with the major stuff.

One of my problems with an American single payer program is that someone from the US Government will be in charge of it and, unless they put strong safeguards in place to prevent corruption and using the money for other pet projects, it will have a hard time funding everything. OTOH, removing the insurance from the equation will make the money go a lot farther but it will also cause a lot of people to be unemployed and the fancy headquarters will be vacant.

WRT 'Americans' wanting an MRI on every corner, that's not the reason so many have been installed, IMO- it's because so many large medical groups have bought others and they want to keep patients coming to them. They know they're the only game in town and they'll be damned if they're going to lose business to someone else. My guess is that many MRIs go unused, most of the time. That said, companies that build MRIs like GE Medical Systems wouldn't need to hire as many people to service them. I kow someone who does this, so I could find out how many need repairs in this area as an example.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 35 made on Sunday February 10, 2019 at 10:55
highfigh
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On February 9, 2019 at 22:35, buzz said...
Another factor is the cost of litigation or fear of litigation. A major cost center for the medical community is insurance.

Yes, we need to change our end of life thinking. I knew a fellow with terminal cancer. He had been through all of the then state of the art procedures and experimental trials, the end was near, everyone knew it, he wanted to die at home. Then on one particularly bad night, he was whisked to the hospital and thrown into intensive care. Likely he would not have survived the night without the tubes and frantic things done in intensive care. As best he could, he asked that this not be done, but his last wish was ignored. About a week later he died in the intensive care unit. I wonder how many lives could have been positively impacted if the resources tied up in that final week could have been diverted to preventive medicine or treating conditions that could have been cured with relatively simple procedures that were out of reach for the uninsured or uneducated.

You just posted an example of malpractice, or maybe it was the rest of the family who ignored his last wishes because they just couldn't let him go- someone had to call for an ambulance, right? If he didn't have a living will with DNR, it probably would have been avoided but, from personal experience, pulling the plug is not an easy thing to do. The hospital or his doctor should have had any documents pertaining to this.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 36 made on Sunday February 10, 2019 at 12:43
Anthony
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As a Canadian I have read this thread but mostly stayed out of the subject since it is not my place to put in my 2cents since it does not affect me

But
On February 10, 2019 at 10:49, highfigh said...
OTOH, removing the insurance from the equation will make the money go a lot farther but it will also cause a lot of people to be unemployed and the fancy headquarters will be vacant.

I hope you don't mind me adding my two cents on the above quote.


I don't think it would be that big and here is why

1) insurance is not single facetted you have car insurance, home insurance, life insurance... so the insurance companies won't go anywhere still be around

2) Here in Canada you have institutionalized medicine, but you also have companies like blue cross that specialize in health insurance. Why? elective surgery (laser eye treatment, plastic surgery),prescription drugs, dental, eye glasses, hospital upgrades (like a private room)... are not all covered by the gouvernment programme, so there is still room for health insurance programs, they just cost a lot less. There is also travel health insurance, like someone said earlier, if you get sick outside the country it is not as easy as just clicking your health card, you have to pay the bill and then when you come back you have to ask for a refund (and at least here in Quebec) the Province will only cover the equivalent of costs here.


3) don't forget the process is always the same. Someone needs a treatment, the hospital tabulates the cost it either gives the bill to the individual or passes it along to the insurance company/gouvernment. so that part is 100% the same, Now if the Gouvernment or insurance company pays it, you need someone there to tabulate it and pay the hospital. All that work force should be more or less the same.


I can see a small dip in MV for the insurance companies as their revenue decreases and so smaller bonuses for the top dogs there. But I don't think there will be massive unemployment (they will be moved to the gouvernment) or even vacant headquarters.
...
Post 37 made on Sunday February 10, 2019 at 13:02
highfigh
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On February 10, 2019 at 12:43, Anthony said...
As a Canadian I have read this thread but mostly stayed out of the subject since it is not my place to put in my 2cents since it does not affect me

But

I hope you don't mind me adding my two cents on the above quote.

I don't think it would be that big and here is why

1) insurance is not single facetted you have car insurance, home insurance, life insurance... so the insurance companies won't go anywhere still be around

2) Here in Canada you have institutionalized medicine, but you also have companies like blue cross that specialize in health insurance. Why? elective surgery (laser eye treatment, plastic surgery),prescription drugs, dental, eye glasses, hospital upgrades (like a private room)... are not all covered by the government programme, so there is still room for health insurance programs, they just cost a lot less. There is also travel health insurance, like someone said earlier, if you get sick outside the country it is not as easy as just clicking your health card, you have to pay the bill and then when you come back you have to ask for a refund (and at least here in Quebec) the Province will only cover the equivalent of costs here.

3) don't forget the process is always the same. Someone needs a treatment, the hospital tabulates the cost it either gives the bill to the individual or passes it along to the insurance company/government. so that part is 100% the same, Now if the Government or insurance company pays it, you need someone there to tabulate it and pay the hospital. All that work force should be more or less the same.

I can see a small dip in MV for the insurance companies as their revenue decreases and so smaller bonuses for the top dogs there. But I don't think there will be massive unemployment (they will be moved to the government) or even vacant headquarters.

OK, but look into this- it proposes getting rid of the whole health care insurance industry, at the cost of 1.4 Million jobs.

[Link: ntknetwork.com]

Not all insurers deal with health care. 1.4 million is almost 4% of Canada's entire population and not all in the field have specialized skills- where will they go?

If a health care card is used (in the way a credit or debit card is used), it could be tied to a network that does the accounting, but it would need a lot of safeguards.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 38 made on Sunday February 10, 2019 at 13:19
Ranger Home
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On February 9, 2019 at 18:49, davidcasemore said...
Democratic Socialism does not equal Communism, Fascism, or Collectivism.

That's exactly what they want you to believe. And, you do. But, we knew that.
Post 39 made on Sunday February 10, 2019 at 17:28
Anthony
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On February 10, 2019 at 13:02, highfigh said...
OK, but look into this- it proposes getting rid of the whole health care insurance industry, at the cost of 1.4 Million jobs.

[Link: ntknetwork.com]

Not sure what your point is.

you can't start with OK and then link to something that assumes all the jobs (what ever that means) will be lost. my whole point was that it did not make any sense as a conclusion because


1) insurance companies will still exist

2) health insurance sold by insurance companies will still exist (it does in every country where there is public health insurance)

3) if the gouvernment takes on the role it will need a bigger workforce to take care of everything the insurance companies do now. The bills and the accounting and data entry won't magically disappear, at the end of the day the doctors, nurses.... will still expect to get paid.
...
Post 40 made on Sunday February 10, 2019 at 17:45
davidcasemore
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On February 10, 2019 at 13:19, Ranger Home said...
That's exactly what they want you to believe. And, you do. But, we knew that.

"They"?

You need some more tin foil.

But we knew that.
Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time!
Post 41 made on Monday February 11, 2019 at 00:20
Mac Burks (39)
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On February 10, 2019 at 13:02, highfigh said...
OK, but look into this- it proposes getting rid of the whole health care insurance industry, at the cost of 1.4 Million jobs.

Those 1.4 million can transition to healthcare and solve two problems.
Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 42 made on Monday February 11, 2019 at 09:25
highfigh
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On February 10, 2019 at 17:28, Anthony said...
Not sure what your point is.

you can't start with OK and then link to something that assumes all the jobs (what ever that means) will be lost. my whole point was that it did not make any sense as a conclusion because

1) insurance companies will still exist

2) health insurance sold by insurance companies will still exist (it does in every country where there is public health insurance)

3) if the gouvernment takes on the role it will need a bigger workforce to take care of everything the insurance companies do now. The bills and the accounting and data entry won't magically disappear, at the end of the day the doctors, nurses.... will still expect to get paid.

"OK" acknowledged your point but I'm not sure you'r aware of what some are proposing- AOC wants to abolish private health care and the Federal government is already the largest employer in the US- the last thing we need is to make it larger. It's expensive, inefficient, damn near impossible to fire people for incompetence and it looks for ways to spend money.

The details of what happens post-single payer need to be examined closely if it is to work at all, never mind working well and we can't have any of that Nancy Pelosi "We have to sign it so we can see what's in it" crap.

I have absolutely no problem paying the care providers- my problem is with the health car insurance industry sucking up all of that money and then denying coverage, which ends with them building new shiny headquarters.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 43 made on Monday February 11, 2019 at 09:25
highfigh
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On February 11, 2019 at 00:20, Mac Burks (39) said...
Those 1.4 million can transition to healthcare and solve two problems.

How?
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 44 made on Monday February 11, 2019 at 09:57
EXT
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On February 7, 2019 at 12:16, kgossen said...
And then all you have to do is wait, and wait and wait and wait and wait.

My experience with the Canadian medical system wasn't bad, although it is far from perfect.

I fell from a step ladder, missing the bottom step and landed on my butt on a concrete floor. Broke my femur a few inches below the top. An ambulance took me to the local hospital, I was x-rayed, operated on and had a pin inserted into the bone. Next day they had me walking for physiotherapy. To check some other potential problems I had more x-rays, ultrasound and MRI. I spent a month in the hospital to recover and to receive physio. After discharge I am now receiving physio three times a week in my home.

All this is covered by government medicare, I just have to show them my medical card, and I walked out paying nothing. This is not a free program, we have to pay an annual fee with our income tax and employers also have to pay a fee for each employee. Those without employment income or those who do not pay income tax do not pay anything.

As a side note, my hospital admission document advises non-residents will have to pay between $2404.00 for ward up to $5100.00 per day for intensive care or the coronary unit.

Yes, some services have a wait-list because there is a shortage of certain specialties, and some doctors complain that they don't get paid what they think they are worth. But it is a better system than I see operating in the US.

I do have private health insurance from my employer, this covers fees and services that medicare doesn't. But medicare covers the basic services that most people need.
Post 45 made on Monday February 11, 2019 at 10:00
drewski300
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On February 9, 2019 at 18:49, davidcasemore said...
There is another reason for the high cost - the uninsured who use the ER because they are now so sick from being untreated for something that would have been easily treatable had they had health insurance to go see a doctor. Now they are on death's door and the rest of us have to pick up the cost.

True. But you miss an important part, when you give it away for free you flood the system with people who are going for everything. So if they had "free" health care, the people who truly needed it will get overlooked by the same under performing population who don't have health care now. I say under performing but I haven't found it difficult to maintain a job since I was 19 with medical coverage. I understand there are people with mental health and physical issues that this isn't as easy but this isn't certainly the norm.

This is why universal health care is needed. You can call it Socialism, Medicare-for-All, Kenyan Care, Single-Payer - it doesn't matter. The two biggest costs to our current health care scheme are the uninsured and the bureaucratic costs involved in processing the insurance claims. These go away with universal coverage. Other factors are the student loans which force doctors to have to charge so much, the pharmaceutical industry (and their false claims about R&D which is actually done for them by our universities), as well as American's wanting to have an MRI facility on every corner. Oh, and the cost of end-of-life care where 90% of your health care costs are spent in the last couple of years of your life. We treat our pets better - Let Granny Go!

Umm the reason why schooling cost so high is directly related to the government infusing money into the higher education system. This isn't just for doctors but for all higher education. A big reason why medical costs what it does is due to the massive amounts of lawsuits filed every day across the country. Insurance costs are through the roof.

Also true that the uninsured are crushing the system. But to my point above, simply by paying for the health care of everyone, we will also crush the system with the same people who never went, going every day for the simplest shit.

The majority of the problems today are directly related to what we are putting into our bodies. If we educated people, we would dramatically reduce the most common issues with our health today. The only caveat to this is making the switch from treating to prevention costs. Meaning, the amount of insulin we issue as a society is staggering! All covered by the health care system. Guess what, if we eat better we can eliminate people currently taking insulin and prevent future diagnosis. The only two problems with this ideology. First people are lazy and aren't willing to make changes until it's too late or after they receive a bad diagnosis. The second is we are taking away from the doctors who are enjoying their comfortable life treating patients. One of my favorite quotes (from a socialist BTW), “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
"Just when I thought you couldn't possibly be any dumber, you go and do something like this... and totally redeem yourself!"
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