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Control4 Fireplace Control
This thread has 29 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Wednesday January 16, 2019 at 23:54
tca
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We looked at a clients fireplace today. It had 2 low voltage wires connected to a switch. In the on position the switch turned on the fireplace. In the off position it turned it off. It seems like the switch is opening and closing the connection. We want to use a control4 switch to do the same thing. We have power in the box. Would we be able to hot up the switch and connect it to a relay and also connect the fireplace wires to the relay so that when the power is on, it energizes the relay and turns on the fireplace, and same for off? I've never tried it, but in theory it should work, I just want to see if anyone has done this before. If so, what relay would you use, and where can we get it? Thanks a lot.
Post 2 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 02:04
davidcasemore
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The fireplace needs a simple dry contact closure so any type of relay will work. It can be a very small relay because there's hardly any current involved. You don't even need the Control4 switch if you have any Control4 product with dry contact outputs.

The fireplace gas valve is turned on and off via a thermocouple which gets its electricity from the heat generated by the pilot light. If you didn't know any better it almost looks like magic.

Ernie, please weigh in if I got any of my terminology mixed up.
Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time!
Post 3 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 02:16
tweetymp4
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Just did pretty much exactly this with lutron. works great.
I'm Not an engineer, but I play one on TV.
My handle is Tweety but I have nothing to do with the organization of similar name. I just had a really big head as a child so folks called me tweety bird.
Post 4 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 02:19
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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The coolness of the thermocouple thing is that if the pilot light goes out, there's no power to open the gas valve to the burner, so gas only flows from the burner when the pilot light is on. This is how pilot lights work on water heaters, too.

DO NOT try to measure resistance of a millivolt system. I say that because I still think I blew a valve once by attaching an ohmmeter to it. I never bothered to look up whether that's a possibility, so I just don't do it.

David, you should know you never need to tell me to jump in if the terminology is squirrely....
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 5 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 09:54
GeneD
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On January 17, 2019 at 02:16, tweetymp4 said...
Just did pretty much exactly this with lutron. works great.

What model switch/relay did you use for lutron...rr2? Did you just put the relay within the box...Thanks for your input!
Post 6 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 10:33
SWOInstaller
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On January 17, 2019 at 02:04, davidcasemore said...
The fireplace needs a simple dry contact closure so any type of relay will work. It can be a very small relay because there's hardly any current involved. You don't even need the Control4 switch if you have any Control4 product with dry contact outputs.

This would be a much better solution than replacing a switch.

The difficulty in replacing the switch with a C4 device (Or any control system switch) is that you require 120V and also a relay which will not fit within a single gang box as they are tight enough with just your switch installed.

Since the relay requires 120V to be triggered it always has to be accessable as per Electrical code so finding a place to locate this and within a box large enough to house the relay usually becomes difficult.

What we tend to do during prewire is ensure that we have a low voltage line (usually station wire) pulled to the fireplace which ensures that we have control of it if required from the control system.

The bigger issue I have come across with fireplaces is that they are becoming "smarter" (I use this term very loosely) and the manufactures are designing them to have proprietary remotes and switches (for lights and temperatures and flame heights and so on) and no longer allow for basic contact closer control.
You can't fix stupid
Post 7 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 10:43
lippavisual
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On January 17, 2019 at 10:33, SWOInstaller said...
The bigger issue I have come across with fireplaces is that they are becoming "smarter" (I use this term very loosely) and the manufactures are designing them to have proprietary remotes and switches (for lights and temperatures and flame heights and so on) and no longer allow for basic contact closer control.

Yup and exactly why I didn't even bother with the one i have at home. I don't NEED my fireplace under my systems control. Just as simple to grab the stock remote and get it where I want it.

At least in C4 land, it is possible to use the Matterlink RF product to get ON/OFF?Lights, but it is literally just that. No flame height, color changes, etc.
Post 8 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 11:51
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On January 17, 2019 at 10:33, SWOInstaller said...
This would be a much better solution than replacing a switch.

The difficulty in replacing the switch with a C4 device (Or any control system switch) is that you require 120V and also a relay which will not fit within a single gang box as they are tight enough with just your switch installed.

Aren't 12 volt relays available? What is it about C4 that 120 volts is required?
Since the relay requires 120V to be triggered it always has to be accessible as per Electrical code so finding a place to locate this and within a box large enough to house the relay usually becomes difficult.

This is why you use a 12 volt relay. Heck, in one customer's house I use one of the relays in a Xantech CC-62, which is six 12 volt relays in a box.

What we tend to do during prewire is ensure that we have a low voltage line (usually station wire) pulled to the fireplace which ensures that we have control of it if required from the control system.

Yes.
The bigger issue I have come across with fireplaces is that they are becoming "smarter" (I use this term very loosely) and the manufactures are designing them to have proprietary remotes and switches (for lights and temperatures and flame heights and so on) and no longer allow for basic contact closer control.

The bigger issue, as I ran into it, is that the client buys a fireplace installation that comes with a control system included. The last one of these I did had a proprietary RF control and I had to remove it and replace it with a 12 volt relay. I saw the client's invoice for the entire installation and he had paid about $300 for the RF control, which turned out not to be needed.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 9 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 12:24
tca
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I found a KB article from Control4 that said we can use this:

[Link: amazon.com]

The only thing is I'm not sure if the fireplace is 12v or 24v. I wonder why the relay would not work with 12v?

Also, could it be placed right in the electrical box if there is room? It's a double gang.
Post 10 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 13:09
tweetymp4
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On January 17, 2019 at 09:54, GeneD said...
What model switch/relay did you use for lutron...rr2? Did you just put the relay within the box...Thanks for your input!

RA2

Lutron Pow Pak... the 24V in one one with relay out. (lmj-cc01-24 i think)

replaced the wall switch with a pico.

relay on board the pow pak, all low volt, no j box needed.

You need RA2 inclusive to integrate the pow pak into RA2
I'm Not an engineer, but I play one on TV.
My handle is Tweety but I have nothing to do with the organization of similar name. I just had a really big head as a child so folks called me tweety bird.
Post 11 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 16:24
SWOInstaller
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On January 17, 2019 at 11:51, Ernie Gilman said...
Aren't 12 volt relays available? What is it about C4 that 120 volts is required?

Ernie, the OP stated that he would like to use a C4 Switch and has 120VAC available within the switch location. To me this means that the C4 switch requires 120VAC to work properly.

This then leads to requiring a relay that will be triggered using 120VAC, which is why I stated that this would not fit into a single gang box due to the combined size of switch and relay, this requiring to locate either device within a separate box that can be accessible and rated for 120VAC.
You can't fix stupid
Post 12 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 17:09
Knowinnothin
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Could we not just confirm 24vac and just use a thermostat? From info in op theirs only 2 wires available, however their are plenty of thermostats that have a work around for no "c" wire.
Post 13 made on Thursday January 17, 2019 at 18:16
davidcasemore
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On January 17, 2019 at 12:24, tca said...
I found a KB article from Control4 that said we can use this:

[Link: amazon.com]

The only thing is I'm not sure if the fireplace is 12v or 24v. I wonder why the relay would not work with 12v?

Also, could it be placed right in the electrical box if there is room? It's a double gang.

The fireplace "voltage" is not relevant!! It just needs a simple dry contact closure. You know, touch the two wires together and we have FLAMES. Pull the two wires apart you have FLAME OUT.

So what is needed is a relay or any device with a contact closure output - Form "A" or Form "C" will work. How you trigger that contact closure will be based upon the control device, as will the voltage of the Coil in the relay.

With Lutron you could use the Pow-Pak or with HWQS you could use a QSE-IO. There are also processors from AMX, Crestron, URC and others which have dry contact outputs on them. I don't go anywhere near C4 so I don't know what products they have. The issue with using a 120 volt "smart" switch to power a relay with a 120 volt coil is, as mentioned above by others, where do you hide the relay? You could use a two-gang box with a divider and a 1/2 blank cover plate (not very classy).

Perhaps the fireplace location backs up to a garage? Perhaps there is an unfinished basement or crawlspace underneath?

I always ran a 2-conductor wire from the fireplace box to the mechanical room. Until one day - also mentioned earlier -out came the RF remote option from the fireplace manufacturers which the homeowner thought he needed for his "Smart Home" when in fact it just screwed everything up.
Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time!
Post 14 made on Friday January 18, 2019 at 23:56
tweeterguy
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Z2IO located at existing control module.
Disconnect the 2 existing low voltage wires at the control module side.
Wire relay on the Z2IO to the existing contacts the two low volt wires were connected to.

At this point you have control over the fireplace via C4 KP button link located elsewhere, fireplace timer experience driver, custom button, etc.

If you want to maintain the toggle functionality of the existing wall switch...
Leave it wired as it is at the switch side.
Connect the other ends (previously removed from above) to a contact on the Z2IO.
This will give you the ability to bind the contact up to program against for toggle on/off of the fireplace from the existing switch.
Post 15 made on Saturday January 19, 2019 at 00:34
davidcasemore
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Control4 Z2IO

[Link: usermanual.wiki]

Page 7 of the Installation Instructions (Page 12 of PDF)

"Sample Wiring Configurations"

Option 1 (R1 or R2 - Both SPST)

Connect the two wires from the fireplace to terminals C1 & C2 (or terminals C3 & C4)
Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time!
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