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Topic:
Why do we need control systems?
This thread has 51 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 00:31
1234tech
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Good thread in FB C4 group debating control, video distribution and DIY. Looking to others on how to answer customer questions on this topic.

With Google (or Alexa) touch screens, Lutron Select, Nest Tstat, Nest cameraís, Nest (or Ring) doorbell, Sony or Samsung smart TV, Sonos soundbar and Connects, and Tivo or Roku, what more is needed for a good Smart Home experience?

Nest can address security. Eero is available for the network. AVRs complicate the system and drive the need for a remote control.

So what is missing in the Homeowner experience to require control?
Post 2 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 01:09
Mac Burks (39)
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Which homeowner are we talking about? What do they consider "good"? How do you get Atmos without an AVR? Can nest address security for a 20000 sqft house? What exactly is the point of a smart TV? Slower (compared to appletv or roku) access to apps?

This is just more X10 vs Lutron debate from years ago. Some people are happy getting all their home automation gear from home depot some are not.
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Post 3 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 01:22
tomciara
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Agreed, I believe it is generally client driven. If the client is a do it yourselfer, he may want to be more involved in set up, and will have to be more involved in maintenance. These will less often be our clients.

We more often will be working for people who don't want to mess with this stuff, either in setting it up, or making sure it works all the time.

Then of course, Mac hits the nail on the head with certain equipment being required for certain applications and doing things the right way.
There is no truth anymore. Only assertions. The internet world has no interest in truth, only vindication for preconceived assumptions.
Post 4 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 01:40
davidcasemore
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CEPro vs. Hire a Pro
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Post 5 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 07:34
Don Heany
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Care to share a link to this discussion?
Post 6 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 08:12
goldenzrule
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The biggest part of that discussion was video distribution and how the cost is no longer worth it with more people streaming and how cheap and easy it is to place media streamers behind TVs or use smart tvs themselves.
Post 7 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 08:17
Fins
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This gets into a similar question Iíve been wanting to ask but havenít gotten around to. One night last week I opened the Alexa app on my iPad to see what all it can really do. From what Iíve read I under stand that you can create events or macros in the Alexa app so that one phrase can make multiple things happen. Iíve been in this industry for 12 years this Christmas and I couldnít figure it out. I sure donít see most end users figuring it out either.

Hereís the other thing. From her Iíve seen, Alexa has no way for different devices to trigger events. It doesnít monitor system states. Like if I want the thermostat to be turned up if a certain user unlocks the front door.

So it depends if people want a control system, or if they want a remote control
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

OP | Post 8 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 09:08
1234tech
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Good points. I have been installing gear since the early 90s and well vested in what we do. But just recognizing the industry is changing. It is my opinion there will always be a job for the pro but the number of jobs that require the type of control we install isn't near the number of jobs that diy and iot devices will serve. As our customers experience these diy and iot devices there will be more pressure on the value we add.

I am just saying that for a small home or condo with a dozen or so light switches, a tstat, a doorbell and a camera or two and some Sonos along with a Smart TV and soundbar, Google and Alexa can serve this pretty well.
OP | Post 9 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 09:09
1234tech
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On November 26, 2018 at 07:34, Don Heany said...
Care to share a link to this discussion?

[Link: facebook.com]
OP | Post 10 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 09:18
1234tech
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On November 26, 2018 at 01:09, Mac Burks (39) said...
Which homeowner are we talking about? What do they consider "good"? How do you get Atmos without an AVR? Can nest address security for a 20000 sqft house? What exactly is the point of a smart TV? Slower (compared to appletv or roku) access to apps?

This is just more X10 vs Lutron debate from years ago. Some people are happy getting all their home automation gear from home depot some are not.

Agreed, but devil's advocate how many 20k homes are there?

In my experience fewer homes even need an AVR - and even fewer have/know what Atmos is or are willing to pay for it.

It is the AVR and video distribution systems that complicates the job. As an audiophile and surround sound fan I get it. But more and more users are OK w/o surround sound and don't need a video distribution system.
Post 11 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 09:31
Hasbeen
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While I agree that people in 10-20,000 sq ft. homes are going to go the C4 route when building a home, that's such a small percentage of the population, most guys on this forum don't cater to them, at least not on a regular basis.

So, if we take the sq ft. down to 5000 and below, I think that this is a conversation that the industry needs to address.  Here are my thoughts on it.

First, the systems that you're installing are struggling to keep up with the products that customers want. Nearly every day on this forum there's a discussion about SONOS not working with C4, or Spotify not working with Autonomic, or HDMI extenders not working with XYZ TV, it goes on and on. The surveillance apps are horrible compared to their competition from less expensive products like Ring and Nest.

I hear CI's say...I don't install SONOS because it doesn't work with C4 or I don't care about Spotify, etc.  However, unlike in the past these products are becoming "known" and they're being requested by the customers.  If the XYZ system doesn't work with the product that they want, you're going to hit a barrier...and here's my opinion why.

Google, Facebook, and Amazon want in the house.   This thing is $99 and does more than a C4 touchscreen... and it's plug and play.  Does it connect to $1000 speakers? No.  But the name of the game is connectivity, not sound quality.  You have a hard time selling sound to a guy who walks around with earbuds in his ears all day.

[Link: store.google.com]

 They have the best designers, the best engineers, and have unlimited funds to move into any market they want...and in Google's case, they basically own the internet. 

Amazon Alexa is becoming more popular by the day, and they also have unlimited funds.

Facebook and Apple will pick up the scraps.

Xfinity has a voice activated remote that comes FREE with the cable boxes, it's RF and voice control, and the voice control works really well. So, why does someone want to go backwards with a URC or ProControl remote that costs upwards of $500.

What's more....sooner rather than later, we'll be getting our cable directly through WIFI or Cat6 connected directly to the TV, they've already built the apps, they just need to work the bugs out, and they'll have everyone watching TV through the app, without a cable box at all.

So, if you have no cable box, and a smart TV or a Roku, Apple TV, they've just done away with video distribution by removing the need for it altogether.

I mentioned earlier that the big three have the best designers, their products are designed well, and they work.  So, if you were a consumer which product would you choose?  A product from a company like Google, that has unlimited funds, is designed well, and works. Or would you choose the company you've never heard of, that works most of the time, that costs exponentially more, with a GUI that looks like it was designed by a 12 year old?

Do I think the industry is dead? No.  But it's going to change tremendously in the next few years, and it'll be interesting to see where it all shakes out.   As of today's date, C4's stock price is almost 50% below what it was last year.
Post 12 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 09:44
Trunk-Slammer -Supreme
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On November 26, 2018 at 09:18, 1234tech said...
Agreed, but devil's advocate how many 20k homes are there?

This IS a big part of it. MOST homes have no need for anything more than a DIY solution.

"More and more users are OK w/o surround sound and don't need a video distribution system.".

Those average people that do want surround sound, generally want only that, and don't give a rats ass about lighting control, multiroom video, etc, etc.

With the advent of Sonos, the biggest DIY product in the world, that everyone seemed to jump on, the DIY everything market has grown exponentially, and it's not slowing down.
Post 13 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 09:59
Rob Grabon
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Time.
It's the most valuable asset in the world.

For a segment of the market, they'll pay someone else to to do it for them.

Most Pro's in the industry don't want to waste their time with DIY gear as there's little value add or profit vs a whole lot of maintenance and client support required.

For the person with time, and know how, the DIY stuff can be pretty good.
Limitations, absolutely. And money and time will be wasted along the way, having to replace the wiz bang thing that didn't perform/failed/vanished.

They may also have less time available later in life, and may hire a pro the second time. Or the worst case for the industry will be they forgo due to the mess they lived with the first time.

Our job is tougher today, explaining the pro's and con's, and many will under buy not understanding the advantages and value of the avr/better network/control/speakers/amplifier etc.

Vendors have already begun to pick sides, the giants are just too big to win against. Installers will need to as well, or divide into two, the level of response, service, and support are not the same on both sides of the fence. This is the elephant in the room.
Technology is cheap, Time is expensive.
Post 14 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 10:07
Rob Grabon
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Privacy.
Perhaps as valuable as time.

There's a huge difference in privacy with DIY and Integrated Systems.
For many, that's worth the cost.

The biggest fear is the populace is numb with data breaches. It's only a matter of time before one of the big 4 blows it. Will the people react? Trashing their phones and voice devices? Or, just except it as status quo?
Technology is cheap, Time is expensive.
Post 15 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 10:14
Fins
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How many end users are going to be able to really setup these DIY systems?
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

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