Would love to get everyone's take on this - especially if 'everyone' knows the special Xantech interface was required.

Retained by a very wealthy client to install a very trick front PJ theater - recessed, retracting screen and PJ, plasma for casual viewing, etc. The gear was a mix. He had a full complement of Martin Logan speakers, he purchased a Dwin DuoVision system direct from Dwin (he's very well-connected, and knows their president, so he got a 'deal'), and he also bought a fair number of parts from us (ReQuest music server, Denon 3910 DVD, all control systems, etc.). For the 'heart' of the system, he bought a Classe' amp and Classe's new SSP-300 pre/pro from a local high-end A/V shop. It was a our job to install it all, and do the control system (an HTM MX-3000 was our choice for this).

Overall, the install went great. But . . .

Wanting to avoid any RF interference issues, we installed the MRF-250 in their attic, and then interfaced it to a Xantech connecting block, from which we then connected a mix of minjacks (for devices with direct Ir inputs) and emitters (for those devices that do not).

Devices in this system with direct Ir connections (always preferable - correct?) included the ReQuest, Denon DVD, and the Classe' pre/pro.

The ReQuest and Denon worked perfectly via the MX-3000. But the pre/pro did not. Note that the SSP-300 is a brand new model, and we may have been the first on the West Coast to install one. In fact, the first unit was defective, as it would disable its digital coax inputs if a manual speaker calibration was performed.

So when the pre/pro would not respond to the MX-3000 (or even its own remote), I figured it was another bug. Much back and forth transpired, between my client, Classe', the Classe' dealer, and us.

3 days after reporting what I thought was a bug in their infrared system, I was told by Classe' that the SSP-300's direct Ir input won't work in a Xantech environment without the addition of a Xantech 794 universal interface. DOH!

Naturally, I end up with egg on my face. Classe's general manager went as far as to accuse me of sabotaging their pre/pro so I could sell my own gear into the project! Ridiculous, but that's what he told my client. He also said "these things (meaning home theater installations) are rarely plug-and-play". Hey, thanks so much for that stunning bit of news!

I basically just needed to vent on this, but I'd also love to hear if most of you would have known to use the 794. I certainly didn't, as I've never had anything but success using direct Ir inputs directly from a Xantech block (or HTM MRF-200/250). And in general, I suppose this is another cautionary tale of the risks of taking on an installation where you don't sell all of the equipment being used.

I don't know about the 794, but I agree completely that you can't be responsible when it comes to equipment that you didn't sell to the client.

One of the most important things I learned when I started out, was that you have to really know the lines you sell. When something new comes out, you need to get it in house first to test it. If a client must have something new and untested, then they need to know beforehand that there are certain risks involved.

My contract even states that I'm not responsible for installing or controlling third party or owner-furnished equipment.

It's not your fault.

Dawn

Just some info, but the IR In jack on the back of the Meridian G-Series equipment is not currently active, so don't bother trying right now. Meridian tech told me this will be active in the future.

Matt

Some equipment requires IR with the carrrier stripped. The 794-xx does this. Marantz products have needed these in the past but I am not up on their current product. Crestron gives you the option in DEAL for stripping the carrier from IR signals. Hope this helps.

That sucks, but is not your fault. I charge extra to install gear that I did not sell and simply explain it as, I know that the products I sell work well together. I would have first asked the manufacturer about the issue and if it requires extra parts like that they should list it in their manual or a technical note. Rear input jacks do not always work as intended and most of the time the manufacturers of infrared systems know this, such as Xantech, Niles, etc. As for Classe' whomever they should have been a little more considerate.

i install brands that i have already slid down the alway painful learning curve. when we get out of our element its usually costs us both time and money!

PET PEEVE TIME:

Dean, you did not put your email address in your profile, so I could not privately email you to tell you that I have a client with the same last name in the West Los Angeles area. Same family?

Now that I am over my pet peeve --

Sounds like the Classe guy is a jerk. How the hell are you supposed to know that the IR input requires something strange? Does Xantech even know yet? Call them and ask! (Of course, this is NOT in the manual, right?) (Of course, these manuals are provided to the people who sell the Classe, not you, right?) (Of course, even THEY have to ask for them when their IR control of the Classe does not work)

Customers can create bad installation scenarios, and every customer should be informed about this from the start. Baiscally, they need to know that if they are not buying the equipment from you, they are throwing out the window the built-in economy that you provide them by knowing, in advance, the hairy details of their equipment and how it all works together. If they buy product you do not carry, they assume the cost of on-the-job training in details, unless it did not occur to you to tell them. If they buy product that you sell, but from others, profit that you would use to support them goes to those other people, who will not lift a finger to help. That's how they can charge less.


The customer wants to save money, so buys product from a buddy. This means that any kind of problem will cost him money, which he will resent because he bought the damn thing to save money in the first place. This will be your fault.

You don't sell that stuff, so you cannot play with it in the shop and know a lot about it. That means you have to charge him more to install it as it will take more time. This will be your fault.

You did not sell it to him, so you have no profit to support your time in calling the company, etc to track down problems. Tell the client that your lack of profit means all phone calls are billable time. This will be your fault.

That lack of profit, because it is not an item you carry, means you SHOULD charge for even reading the manual, because the client is forcing you to install that particular thing. This will be your fault. But you already know how to install what you sell!

Now is a good time to revamp my beef with some of the tweaky, high-end manufacturers.

Here you have a product that costs exponentially more then a really good Japanese receiver. Even though you didn't sell it, someone probably went through an awful lot of trouble to convince this guy that he needed to shell out a few extra thousand dollars to buy these lovely hand built seperates.

As you wrote....

"In fact, the first unit was defective, as it would disable its digital coax inputs if a manual speaker calibration was performed."

Hey, that's a terrific feature. My experience is that when people buy really expensive gear that they love it when it's bad out of the box!

You go on to say "3 days after reporting what I thought was a bug in their infrared system, I was told by Classe' that the SSP-300's direct Ir input won't work in a Xantech environment without the addition of a Xantech 794 universal interface. DOH!"

Can you explain what the purpose is of the "direct IR" input if it won't work with direct IR?

"Classe's general manager went as far as to accuse me of sabotaging their pre/pro so I could sell my own gear into the project! Ridiculous, but that's what he told my client."

Sounds like they didn't need your help at all when the product already has a built-in sabotaging feature. However, that doesn't excuse the fact that the Gen Manager's reply was in exceptionally poor taste.

I remember years ago selling a B&K preamp. At the time, one of their selling features was that due to its open architecture, it could be upgraded to meet future technologies. A year later when 7.1 hit the market, my customer called them to find the price on the 7.1 conversion. Guess what? There was none. It couldn't be done.

However, they did extend him the honor of having to send it in for repair anyway since it had broken 13 months after purchasing it.

Great post Ernie. Makes sense for installing products you dont carry. My problem lately is when my quotes are shopped and the customer wants to buy MY products and have me install them. Unfortunately, your arguments dont work in this case as we are obviously familiar with the equipment. I know how I try to get around this, it would be interesting to hear how others do it. 1 year in the biz but I know enough to appreciate the protected brands I sell.

No more line item proposals. These days it is impossible to make proposals with all the equipment listed with model numbers and a price for every little detail. Not only have you designed the entire system for free up front but everyone will shop SOMETHING from it. Theres no way around it. Just list one final price for one complete system. We are selling systems here not individual components right?

Agree and disagree. I first learned how most other subs on a construction job work when I saw a quote from a contractor that gave a brief description of the work that would be performed with a bottom line figure. No pricing breakdown whatsoever. But that's a little different than our business which is "equipment driven" even if we are providing "designed systems", not just a bunch fo components.

Many great clients who aren't even looking for the lowest price will NEVER buy a system with just a bottom line listed and neither would I. I would laugh my ass off if someone gave me a large proposal that included a lot of equipment with nothing but a bottom line. It's one thing to expect someone to trust you, it's another thing to expect someone to give you access to their bank account. To make matters worse, it often sets off warning bells for the client and a person that was not shopping you might get suspicious.

Like it or not being shopped by clients is a way of life for most. There are things that can be done to make our lifes easier, but trying to give an entire proposal with only one bottom line is not going to fly with a lot of people, and IMO is not an acceptable solution to the problem. A room by room breakdown is more likely to fly if you are going to use that strategy.

This message was edited by QQQ on 12/19/04 14:56 ET.

Good idea Studiocats1. What do your proposals look like? Just a paragraph describing the system without specifics? Or do you still list out the major parts just excluding the actual model number and price.

Thanks for the idea.

E. J.

E.J.

You may want to take a look at some of the sample documentation on D-Tools web site (www.d-tools.com). It shows (or at least used to show) a number of different ways to format proposals. You can download all sorts of samples in Adobe format.

What works for one company may not work for others. I provide a detailed summary of what the system will and will not do. You have to be very specific and personalize the proposal for the client. If you want to land top notch clientele you must be firm in your position not to provide line item pricing. A nice functioning demo also helps. Sell yourself and your company. Not Sony, Denon, Pioneer, etc.