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Topic:
New Sonos "AMP"
This thread has 94 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 45.
Post 31 made on Thursday August 30, 2018 at 21:29
dunnersfella
Regular Member
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290
On August 30, 2018 at 21:16, roddymcg said...
I am looking forward to seeing all the killers out there again this year. I wonder how much market share they have actually taken from Sonos?

The beauty is... now they're publicly listed, we can see just how much / how well they are doing.
I'm not so much interested in that, I want to see who is going to partner up with 'works with Sonos' products.
This industry is not getting cheaper and cheaper, we're simply convincing ourselves that we have to push the cheapest option to customers.
#makesonosgreatagain
Post 32 made on Thursday August 30, 2018 at 21:36
Fins
Elite Member
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11,598
On August 30, 2018 at 21:16, roddymcg said...
I am looking forward to seeing all the killers out there again this year. I wonder how much market share they have actually taken from Sonos?

I suspect that since Sonos broke their API at the end of last year and screwed up everyone’s drivers, they’ve seen a noticeable change in the market
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 33 made on Thursday August 30, 2018 at 22:32
brucewayne
Advanced Member
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894
What about autonomic?
brucewayne
Post 34 made on Thursday August 30, 2018 at 22:54
SOUND.SD
Loyal Member
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Drop Sonos like a bad habit. They are out there claiming they are listening to us and delivering what we ask for. Just saw their CI director post how proud of it he was.

How many of you asked them to do this after you supported them with low margins for a decade?

[Link: sonos.com]

They care about one installer. Enjoy. That's it. That's their new direction. They just don't want you and I to notice and bail on them while they steal your customers. They just went public, they need you still. For a few more months at least.
Bulldog AV - San Diego, CA
www.bulldog-av.com
[Link: facebook.com]
Post 35 made on Thursday August 30, 2018 at 23:19
SWFLMike
Long Time Member
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300
IMO - Sonos was the beginning of the end of custom AV, and if you tried to fight it, I'll bet you're *really* feeling it now.

Lately, I've been trying to leverage the features that are built into modern displays (mainly Sonys), and when I listen to customers, they say they use YouTube for music. YOUTUBE. They just put it on and it plays and plays and plays.

Where does Sonos fit into that? Well, if the stupid Connect Amp had an optical input and behaved like the Playbar, I could use it to power a pair of local speakers that I could install and actually make some money on, and not be on the hook for any remote programming, which we've needed mainly for input switching and controlling STBs. Sorry, but the Playbar looks like garbage in most high-end installations, and is too small to be an LCR bar. It's not even close. In fact, it completely sucks in that regard, but the functionality is hard to beat!

So now this new amp comes out and seems to address this issue. DVDs are all but dead - everything is streamed, which comes through the display. The audio can be handled by Sonos, locally as well as distributed. And STBs can be controlled through the displays (and usually can link together for distributed video), so now all the hardware you need can pretty much fit into a SnapAV TV backbox.

The way I see it, we install networks (until 5G kills THAT), TVs and speakers. That's about it. Even the network required to support all this can fit into a 42" can for many jobs. On top of that, there's *no* programming anymore, which is awesome, IMO, because I don't want to be on the hook indefinitely for anyone's job - I've had to manage enough Crestron jobs to be VERY sick of that. I don't feel the *least* bit bad telling a customer that some huge company sent out a duff firmware update that screwed things up.

The bummer in all this, IMO, is lighting control. People have tried to cheap out on that too, and while it "works", it's garbage compared to properly done panelized lighting.

Anyway, sorry for rambling, it may have been the (several) Guinness's talking. But I'm staying busy AND still making pretty good money, so it's not like things are bad. They're just changing, which is nothing new for us.
Post 36 made on Thursday August 30, 2018 at 23:27
SOUND.SD
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On August 30, 2018 at 23:19, SWFLMike said...
IMO - Sonos was the beginning of the end of custom AV, and if you tried to fight it, I'll bet you're *really* feeling it now.

Lately, I've been trying to leverage the features that are built into modern displays (mainly Sonys), and when I listen to customers, they say they use YouTube for music. YOUTUBE. They just put it on and it plays and plays and plays.

Where does Sonos fit into that? Well, if the stupid Connect Amp had an optical input and behaved like the Playbar, I could use it to power a pair of local speakers that I could install and actually make some money on, and not be on the hook for any remote programming, which we've needed mainly for input switching and controlling STBs. Sorry, but the Playbar looks like garbage in most high-end installations, and is too small to be an LCR bar. It's not even close. In fact, it completely sucks in that regard, but the functionality is hard to beat!

So now this new amp comes out and seems to address this issue. DVDs are all but dead - everything is streamed, which comes through the display. The audio can be handled by Sonos, locally as well as distributed. And STBs can be controlled through the displays (and usually can link together for distributed video), so now all the hardware you need can pretty much fit into a SnapAV TV backbox.

The way I see it, we install networks (until 5G kills THAT), TVs and speakers. That's about it. Even the network required to support all this can fit into a 42" can for many jobs. On top of that, there's *no* programming anymore, which is awesome, IMO, because I don't want to be on the hook indefinitely for anyone's job - I've had to manage enough Crestron jobs to be VERY sick of that. I don't feel the *least* bit bad telling a customer that some huge company sent out a duff firmware update that screwed things up.

The bummer in all this, IMO, is lighting control. People have tried to cheap out on that too, and while it "works", it's garbage compared to properly done panelized lighting.

Anyway, sorry for rambling, it may have been the (several) Guinness's talking. But I'm staying busy AND still making pretty good money, so it's not like things are bad. They're just changing, which is nothing new for us.

I made money with Sonos. I settled selling a solid product that allowed me to sell speakers and get in and get out. It was a good living. But if you don't see the change they are making which is about to leave you high and dry, you aren't paying attention.

Sonos made me lazy. It was quick and easy and if it and RTI couldnt do something, I just said no, sorry we can't do that or convinced them they didn't want it anyways.

Then I met control 4 and all that changed. My biz has grown leaps and bounds since. My ability to say YES to customer request is endless and easy and my average job quadrupled. And they support the dealer, provide margins, and amazing remote support options for our clients.

Sonos is trying to take your clients. That's not a conspiracy theory. Click the link I posted above. Yet some people continue to actively support them.

Just because it's a solid product doesn't mean it's good for your business or the only way. I've been on both sides, trust me... The water is better over here.
Bulldog AV - San Diego, CA
www.bulldog-av.com
[Link: facebook.com]
Post 37 made on Thursday August 30, 2018 at 23:33
SOUND.SD
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On August 30, 2018 at 23:19, SWFLMike said...
The bummer in all this, IMO, is lighting control. People have tried to cheap out on that too, and while it "works", it's garbage compared to properly done panelized lighting.

I disagree entirely with this sentiment. I've never sold more lighting control than I have in the past year. While home Radio Ra2 mostly. 10-20k a system. Because now I can. Now it integrates. Easily.

Sonos makes installers lazy. I'm telling you. The industry isn't getting cheaper, installers are convincing themselves they have to go with the cheap stuff.
Bulldog AV - San Diego, CA
www.bulldog-av.com
[Link: facebook.com]
Post 38 made on Friday August 31, 2018 at 00:41
dunnersfella
Regular Member
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October 2016
290
The industry isn't getting cheaper, installers are convincing themselves they have to go with the cheap stuff.



This is a great idea for a new thread...
Soundbars did it to 5.1 theatre.
ATMOS was the 'reaction' by the enthusiasts, but it's too little, too late.
Sonos killed the true money in multi-room.
Other brands are here, offering more money - Control / automation can bring back profit.
But again, too little too late as by default, so many peoples poison of choice is the easiest product that costs their customer the least.

They seldom see their bankruptcy coming, predictably.
This industry is not getting cheaper and cheaper, we're simply convincing ourselves that we have to push the cheapest option to customers.
#makesonosgreatagain
Post 39 made on Friday August 31, 2018 at 01:52
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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29,824
dunnersfella, that's a damn good commentary.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 40 made on Friday August 31, 2018 at 05:37
Mac Burks (39)
Elite Member
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17,467
Sonos has its place just like the Ford fiesta has its place. Does the Ford fiesta mean fewer mustang sales?

I've only done one large scale Sonos system. 31 Sonos boxes at this house. One play, two connects and the rest connect amps. Installed once, no service calls after 3 years and the whole house got triad speakers inside and a mix of coastal source and Sonance landscape outside. No control system at this house. Lutron QS lighting, 14 harmony remotes for video zones. Again zero service calls on the harmony remotes.

At projects with distributed audio and a control system we can't even get Sonos to work properly. I'm convinced that if you go over a single Sonos connect the control system can't stay connected...so we use autonomics instead.

Two different situations two different solutions. Neither erode the others market. Also keep in mind that a cheaper product like Sonos is often a good thing. Think about what the iPod did for distributed audio. 1 little device with a dock that replaced 3 CD changers or a music server that was ten times as much...with ten times the service issues.
Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 41 made on Friday August 31, 2018 at 09:02
highfigh
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7,870
On August 29, 2018 at 20:05, mrtristan said...
I did one MusicCast installation. Spotify connect only so when customer wants to group multiple rooms they have to do it with the music cast app then switch to Spotify app to search and control music. It was embarrassing trying to explain it to them. Hopefully they don’t have friends that have Sonos.

Spotify doesn't work in the app for HEOS, either- it's probably because Sonos went to Spotify first and asked if they could be the only one to have this feature. Embarrassing? Why? It's not something we can control, but it is something we should know before a demo. I like HEOS and MusicCast for the things they offer that Sonos doesn't and that's how I have sold them.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 42 made on Friday August 31, 2018 at 17:10
vwpower44
Super Member
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3,660
On August 30, 2018 at 21:36, Fins said...
I suspect that since Sonos broke their API at the end of last year and screwed up everyone’s drivers, they’ve seen a noticeable change in the market

Yeah, that one hurt. Customers with Total Control had access to favorites for over 3 years. We had engraved hardbutton controls on the walls in bathrooms that no longer functioned for quick play in bathrooms, kitchens, etc. People were pissed. I explained to my clients, and luckily everyone held out for the new driver. I had a few clients who were downright mad at me, even though it wasn't my fault. This has led to me checking out BlueSound at CEDIA. I love Sonos, but things like this are killing it for me. Hopefully this was just a bump in the road, and they actually do care about us CI guys :)
Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish...
Post 43 made on Friday August 31, 2018 at 17:50
Hasbeen
Loyal Member
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5,259
I'm a huge Sonos fan.  Personally, I think it's one of the best products in the industry and so do the other manufacturers because they've been trying to copy it for a decade....and have totally s#it the bed doing it.

Frankly, I don't know why CI's aren't holding the industry manufacturers feet to the fire....

Something like, "If you care about us why are you continually making inferior products?  You're supposed to be leading the way in technology, but you're getting your asses handed to you by outsiders."

I hear you guys saying you can't make money with it.   So, let's assume we all know what SONOS dealer pricing is....Then let's assume you're installing a pair of speakers shipping out of North Carolina.  Something that starts with a 550 on it.

Now let's say you're at $1000-$1200 per room installed.  How is that no money? Maybe my definition of "money" and your definition are different?

I've always understood the "sound" argument.  But I've never understood the profit or quality argument.

I see guys pitching Eero on here.....Isn't it essentially the same thing?

P.S- If you want to circumvent the client theft, just use your address for all accounts?
Post 44 made on Friday August 31, 2018 at 19:48
goldenzrule
Loyal Member
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Posts:
July 2007
8,260
On August 31, 2018 at 17:50, Hasbeen said...
I'm a huge Sonos fan.  Personally, I think it's one of the best products in the industry and so do the other manufacturers because they've been trying to copy it for a decade....and have totally s#it the bed doing it.

Frankly, I don't know why CI's aren't holding the industry manufacturers feet to the fire....

Something like, "If you care about us why are you continually making inferior products?  You're supposed to be leading the way in technology, but you're getting your asses handed to you by outsiders."

I hear you guys saying you can't make money with it.   So, let's assume we all know what SONOS dealer pricing is....Then let's assume you're installing a pair of speakers shipping out of North Carolina.  Something that starts with a 550 on it.

Now let's say you're at $1000-$1200 per room installed.  How is that no money? Maybe my definition of "money" and your definition are different?

I've always understood the "sound" argument.  But I've never understood the profit or quality argument.

I see guys pitching Eero on here.....Isn't it essentially the same thing?

P.S- If you want to circumvent the client theft, just use your address for all accounts?

You cannot use your own email for the account any longer.  Ever since alexa integration was introduced, every system must have its unique address.

I am with you though.  There is a difference between no money and less money.  Yes, other systems may make you more money, but the lack of callbacks evens things out quite a bit.  If you use callbacks to keep selling then maybe that is a bad thing.  If you are working on fixed price bids and going back to continually update crap in your first year, it can be a drain.  But moreso, even if you are covered in your contract for that, you can run the risk of alienating a good client.  I am not saying Sonos is the answer for everyone, but for someone that just wants a simple music streaming system and is not interested in anything BUT that, there is no greater option than Sonos in my personal opinion.
Post 45 made on Friday August 31, 2018 at 21:48
Hasbeen
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On August 31, 2018 at 19:48, goldenzrule said...
You cannot use your own email for the account any longer.  Ever since alexa integration was introduced, every system must have its unique address.

Did not know that.
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