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Topic:
Central Vac in poured concrete walls
This thread has 54 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 13:54
SB Smarthomes
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I have a job coming up where all the exterior walls and many of the interior walls are formed and poured concrete.

All the pipe runs from power unit to the inlets will also need to be located down below the slab and stubbed up into the poured concrete footings (no way to run the pipe overheard in the attic).

From there some of the inlets will be in traditional metal framed/drywall walls, but I also have a few inlets that will be in the poured walls.

The concrete will be the finish surface for the interior and exterior walls (won't be furred out and drywalled), so I have to figure out a way to get all the pipe in place and the inlets secured into the inside of the forms and then seal it all up so the inlet & pipes don't get filled with concrete when the walls are poured.

One of my big concerns is using the standard light gauge PVC pipe and it getting broken or crushed down in the gravel under the slab and in the forms.

Does anyone have any central vac in concrete experience or are there any forums or resources for central vac?  I'm guessing this is more common outside the US...

Last edited by SB Smarthomes on July 17, 2018 22:12.
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
Post 2 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 14:09
Ranger Home
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No experience but I think you are spot-on about the thin walled vacuum piping. it could be a huge issue down the road. Propably double sleeve it.

Um, why are YOU doing the vacuum? I'd leave that to a vacuum company lol.
Post 3 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 15:57
Trunk-Slammer -Supreme
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You CAN get steel thin wall central Vacuum pipe and fittings.

They should hold up to the concrete pour, but I won't swear to it.

The biggest problem I see it sealing the end at the wall, and being able to open it back up after the pour to put the inlet valve on.

Plus you could well have an issue with the needed low voltage wiring.

How's your welding talents?
Post 4 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 17:00
Hasbeen
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Just thinking out loud here...Could you use larger Plumbing PVC as a protective enclosure around the vac pipe?  Would be a total PITA, but it would be protected.  It would also give you a convenient space to run the wire.
Post 5 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 17:32
Impaqt
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I'd call your Central Vac supplier....
Post 6 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 17:41
Trunk-Slammer -Supreme
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On July 17, 2018 at 17:00, Hasbeen said...
Just thinking out loud here...Could you use larger Plumbing PVC as a protective enclosure around the vac pipe?  Would be a total PITA, but it would be protected.  It would also give you a convenient space to run the wire.

I was going to suggest this as well, since I have done it in the case of a detached garage. Use the larger pipe, 3" in my case, as a sleeve.

Issues that you will run into with this method are:

1. Will need at least 2 1/2" schedule 40, or schedule 80 (which will be very tight), 3" will be a little easier to work with.

2. Making turns WILL be an issue. This is where the larger sleeve can make all the difference.

3. The pipe you use as a sleeve MUST have a really good seal at the joints, or you will get water intrusion and then have serious problems. A large coating of pipe cleaner, and a heavy dose of pipe dope SHOULD work.

4. How you cap the ends at the walls, so you can open it up to install the outlets is something I have no ideas for.

Like I say, been there done that. Dug up 80' of pipe and installed new stuff, and that was not fun.
Post 7 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 18:32
Hasbeen
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To add on to my and TSP's suggestion...I wonder if it's possible to split the larger PVC pipe length wise....Then you could simply lay it over the vac pipe, protecting it from the concrete?  Maybe use some form of tie downs onthe larger PVC so they don't shift when they're pouring concrete?
Post 8 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 19:42
Fins
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The homeowner isn’t going to be vacuuming anyway. Tell them to just buy a couple Mieles for the housekeeper and be done
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

OP | Post 9 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 23:23
SB Smarthomes
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On July 17, 2018 at 14:09, Ranger Home said...
Um, why are YOU doing the vacuum? I'd leave that to a vacuum company lol.

There is no vacuum company here... at least not anyone the builder trusts to figure this out.  I do central vac occasionally when it's part of a whole home project so have experience, just have never done vac work in concrete.
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
OP | Post 10 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 23:33
SB Smarthomes
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On July 17, 2018 at 15:57, Trunk-Slammer -Supreme said...
You CAN get steel thin wall central Vacuum pipe and fittings.

They should hold up to the concrete pour, but I won't swear to it.

The biggest problem I see it sealing the end at the wall, and being able to open it back up after the pour to put the inlet valve on.

Plus you could well have an issue with the needed low voltage wiring.

How's your welding talents?

I've seen the steel pipe for commercial installs, but will probably try to sort this out with PVC.  Trying to cut and fit steel pipe onsite and getting it to fit around all the forms, rebar and other mechanical gear seems daunting.  I spoke with an industrial vac supply some time ago and they'd never heard of anyone using the steel pipe for underground work like this in concrete.  Sounded like in industrial installs the metal pipe is just surface mounted or suspended on unistrut.

Low voltage will be easy... I'll just run smurf.  The electrical contractor will also need to figure out how to route conduit in for high voltage because these will be powered inlets.

This means each inlet will have the vac pipe, low volt smurf and high volt conduit.  You're correct... getting everything sealed up so concrete doesn't get into the inlet is going to be challenging and I also need to be sure the inlet isn't damaged when the forms are stripped off.

I can weld, but it's not my best skill and not really something I want to tackle for vac install.
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
OP | Post 11 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 23:39
SB Smarthomes
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To those of you who have suggested sleeving the vac pipe in sched 40 or 80, I've thought about this too and agree that it would be difficult but could probably be done.  I haven't gone as far as mocking anything up, but maybe that's worth a couple hours to glue up some pipe and see what the issues will be.

I know adapters are available to convert from 2" schedule 40 plumbing pipe to central vac pipe so maybe that's all that is really needed as a solution for the pipe.

I could use schedule 40 through the slab and footings and then use the adapter to convert down to central vac pipe at sweeps into the inlets.
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
OP | Post 12 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 23:41
SB Smarthomes
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On July 17, 2018 at 17:32, Impaqt said...
I'd call your Central Vac supplier....

I tried this over a year ago when I first became involved in the project during planning.  Talked to my Beam/Electrolux rep and he asked around and no one had any idea what to suggest...
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
OP | Post 13 made on Tuesday July 17, 2018 at 23:46
SB Smarthomes
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On July 17, 2018 at 19:42, Fins said...
The homeowner isn’t going to be vacuuming anyway. Tell them to just buy a couple Mieles for the housekeeper and be done

You're correct that the homeowner won't be the one vacuuming, but they have central vacs in other homes and want it in this house too.  They are so assertive about having central vac everywhere that I'm installing a second power unit for the cabana with a single inlet so they have central vac in that area too.
www.sbsmarthomes.com
Santa Barbara Smarthomes
Post 14 made on Wednesday July 18, 2018 at 00:31
Ernie Gilman
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On July 17, 2018 at 23:33, SB Smarthomes said...
steel pipe

Rust. How many years is this good for?

Low voltage will be easy... I'll just run smurf. 

Unless the concrete pour crushes it, then you won't be able to use it.

Do what you're good at. You're asking for basic information and you're hoping it will work. This is NOT a predictor of success. Tell the contractor you're not good enough with central vac to do this particular house and you -- or better yet he -- needs to find someone who will do it.

If he locates companies that won't do it, that should strengthen your position that it IS A BIG DAMN DEAL that can go very badly. Don't do it yourself.

Then again, Fins had the complete solution. No chance of concrete messing things up, all parts are out in the open where they can be replaced, and most importantly, the client isn't going to be the one who uses this.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 15 made on Wednesday July 18, 2018 at 06:15
thecapnredfish
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Someone mentioned getting around mesh and rebar. Only outside forms go first. Then plumbing goes In as plumber puts in the pipes before rebar and mesh. Sealing ends of pipes. Plumbers cap it with PVC caps then cut them off. You are not doing anything different other than moving dust and hair instead of water and poop. Poured walls? I assume you need perfect placement. Perhaps you can build a small form around where your intake vents go to to keep cement out and give you some room to trim pipe. I’m not a vacuum guy, just going off what I see walking through houses. Crush won’t happen. The soil should be compacted. The cement does not compact the soil further, at least noticeable. Little bit down you dig will not pose an issue. Plumber does it everyday. Your vertical runs will not have weight on them anyways. If worried about under slab runs, put it in schedule 40 or use schedule 40.
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