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Topic:
Snap AV MoIP products
This thread has 61 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 30.
Post 16 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 12:52
Brad Humphrey
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On July 12, 2018 at 21:13, roddymcg said...
Look at the specs of this product, underwhelming to say the least... HDR 8 bit and HDMI bandwidth @ 8.91 Gbps. This is a low end product at best.

Before you put your foot in your mouth, there is no where JAP says it does better than that themselves.

And in fact the JAP 3G transmitters top out at 500Mbps, where as the Binary are saying 850Mbps. That really doesn't mean anything however, JAP could be using a better compression algorithm.
I would like to see a side by side on these 2 for picture quality. As that is the thing I'm most concerned about over features.
Post 17 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 13:47
Ranger Home
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On July 12, 2018 at 15:55, SB Smarthomes said...
Wonder how this will impact the established players in this field like JAP?

Understand its not the goal here to "impact" JAP nor to get JAP dealers to switch. SnapAV has come up with it's own MoIP solution to offer those that have yet to enter the arena and do it in such away that is simple, effective and works. I, myself, had not entered the MoIP arena for a variety of reasons. One, a matrix worked fine so why learn something else? Two, it appeared, whether true or not, that MoIP was a much more complex and involved solution. I stayed away until i felt it was something I wanted, needed and understood. THAT is Snap's market: Introduction to the MoIP world.

Now, if SnapAV's Binary line of MoIP just so happens to pull JAP dealers over, so be it, its gravy. Again, not the goal. Doesnt need to be. With less than 30% of CI's using MoIP (as reported, I cant believe its that high! Really? 30%? I would have guessed 10% or less), there is plenty of room for the market to expand and grow. Snap is capitalizing on that and smart to do so. They have large base of dealers, a dedicated support team, a well established distribution system and we can ALL agree a world class, best in class ordering mechanism in place. I suspect the percentage to jump to 50% or more that will take advantage of MoIP technology.

On July 12, 2018 at 15:55, SB Smarthomes said...
Did anyone participate in beta testing and if so are you allowed to share details |now that the products have been released?

Yes, I am the Ranger Home mentioned in the article. I have had it installed for many months and on a rather large system: 9 sources and 20 displays. Based on my experience, testing and results, Im 100% sold on using a MoIP solution. Binary is my solution of choice now. Why? Its crazy simple. All TX and RX (transmitters and receivers) are 4K, not need to figure out from a plethora of SKU's or learning what works with what and where to determine what you need. I saw no discernible difference with a source connected directly a dsplay vs. thru the Binary MoIP. Is there a difference? Maybe so, I couldnt see. I do have a TX connected to my theater with a 145 inch screen and DirecTV still looked great. Granted, I will always use dedicated 4k sources for a theater set up to take full advantage of the latest specs.

Installation is stupid simple as well. Log into the MoIP controller and you can auto discover all TX and RX on the system. The article stated it can be done in five minutes, that's literally not an exaggeration on a smaller system. It's that easy.

There are a few dealers that need to get over "if its from Snap and has a power cord, I ain't using it" mantra. Thats so 2012. This WORKS and works well.

I will get into more detail at a later time. Im in the middle of putting in a 4x7 MoIP right NOW lol.

On July 12, 2018 at 16:50, osiris said...
I think I remember seeing non-functioning "prototype" product in their CEDIA |booth in 2016.

Correct, that was non-function and even newer chipsets are now being used.

On July 12, 2018 at 16:50, osiris said...
Can't wait to see it in person. I hate the term "visually lossless". J+P uses that, |and the picture quality degradation on large screens is easily seen.

I suspect ALL MoIP will have to have some degradation on large screens, afterall it IS compression technology. However, as stated above, i saw no difference on a large screen with DirecTV, cams, SNP-2 player, etc.

On July 12, 2018 at 16:50, osiris said...
If it's an equal to J+P, then I think J+P will be in serious trouble, at least in the |residential market.

I don't think so as far as "losses" on JAPs part, however, it may be more difficult for JAP to expands its dealer base with Snap's entry into the market. That said, the market has SO much room to grow, JAP is not going anywhere.

JAP uses some sort of proprietary technology that allows their switching to be faster. ALL other MoIP manufacturers do not have access to that technology, thus switching is a tad slower. But VERY acceptable. I never got on the JAP bandwagon mostly because a demo I saw at CEDIA many years ago put a bad taste in my mouth. They had TV set up with just an HDMI and one beside it using JAP. HUGE difference! Couldn't believe they had that one the floor! Now, in their defense, that was YEARS ago and I'm certain it has improved DRASTICALLY and I'm guessing its about apples to apples now like I experienced with Snap's Binary MoIP line.


On July 12, 2018 at 19:24, internetraver said...
I haven't used their switches in quite a while.† Anyone know if you have to use |them and how the reliability has been?

Ive been using them since they came out. After the 100 series fiasco (short lived issue!), they have been ROCK solid for us. They even allow us to elimnate a URC switch that filters out streaming sources. OvrC adds to the bonus. Its all just easy to use. Good looking too.

On July 13, 2018 at 11:48, rlustig said...
I looked at the pricing and it seems identical to J + P so yeah, why try an |unproven line unless it is a significant price differential

I proved, to myself anyway :), that is does indeed work. From a manufacturers perspective, you have to look at pricing a bit differently and from many angles. Of course, there is profitability. You can imagine the about of money spend on just R&D alone let alone ramping up production, marketing and sales! Also, what image would it set if this was DIRT cheap? One image would be its junk, so have to be careful there. But I think most important, is why make it too cheap? They are in business to make a profit. Given the goal IS NOT to dislodge JAP, I see nothing wrong with maximizing profits with a product that works comparably to competing products. If their goal was to steal JAP dealers, they would have made it half JAP price and done just that. That's not the goal, the pie is HUGE, so get what you can.

The text-overlay was not even part of the beta test. I stumbled across that ability while working with URC on understanding the driver. Like I said with Julie, I DO think that is a big deal. Looks like some concur. Now, out of the box as it stands right now we have no control over font size and color nor placement. It's just there the way it is. However, a birdie told me that will change on a future firmware update.

What I hope so see even sooner is the ability to build custom drivers a bit easier. There are pre-made drivers for many control systems, but I personally like my driver to have the name of the source and display/room as it aids in building macros easier and really helps with trouble shooting.

I'll add more to this later but for now i got to get back to work. :) I say TRY IT. For those that say I'm tainted or bias because its Snap, that's just silly. If it didn't work I CERTAINLY wouldn't be telling you it did!

NOTE: All opinions are my own! Right or wrong lol. At no point during Beta was pricing discussed other than "it will be comparable." My posts on pricing are my opinion and thoughts. Actually turns out cheaper, plus no decoders needed. Also this site make is difficult to post quotes from the thread, but I'm sure you can figured it out.

Tuck

Last edited by Ranger Home on July 14, 2018 07:58.
Post 18 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 16:08
imt
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Tuck,

Before you replied and at the start if the thread when Paul asked if anyone has beta tested it, I was going to throw your name out as a possibility being all in on Snap.

Nice feedback.

Since I know you are a URC guy as well I assume its a TC2.0 driver? If so, How does the driver work and easily work for the matrix/source selection?
Post 19 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 16:30
Brad Humphrey
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You know one has to be careful when using a brand new product (from any manufacture), it can bite you.
With a 9x20 system installed and others running with no issues at all for months, that is certainly a good sign. And with your recommendation I certainly would be willing to try it.

That JAP product you saw years ago at CEDIA, was their 1st generation. It was meant for digital signage and they thought they could just swap it over to residential with little change. I saw that demo as well, total dog crap. You got to give them credit for having the balls to do the side by side in their booth. Or maybe they really didn't think it looked that bad :/
What it is really scary were the dealers talking about the great picture quality back then - those dealers REALLY do NOT need to be selling customers any video systems.
Anyway, they came out with gen2 products which used a lot more bandwidth, better compression algorithms, and much better picture quality improvements. Although with that release, they started with the marketing of lossless picture quality. "Looks just like the original, you can't tell the difference". Yes, yes you can! And again we have the dealers who don't understand and repeat the koolaid. At least the picture quality is good enough now that the overwhelming majority of people, won't notice or care. So it is perfectly suited for video distribution use.
Post 20 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 16:45
roddymcg
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On July 13, 2018 at 12:52, Brad Humphrey said...
Before you put your foot in your mouth, there is no where JAP says it does better than that themselves.

And in fact the JAP 3G transmitters top out at 500Mbps, where as the Binary are saying 850Mbps. That really doesn't mean anything however, JAP could be using a better compression algorithm.
I would like to see a side by side on these 2 for picture quality. As that is the thing I'm most concerned about over features.

Please show me where I ever mentioned JAP and their specs? I would not put JAP in any project where I had to put my name on the final product.
When good enough is not good enough.
Post 21 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 17:11
Brad Humphrey
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On July 13, 2018 at 16:45, roddymcg said...
Please show me where I ever mentioned JAP and their specs? I would not put JAP in any project where I had to put my name on the final product.

By your response, I would say I misunderstood then.
I thought you were comparing the Binary to the JAP and calling it 'low end product' by that comparison. My mistake.
Post 22 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 22:05
Ranger Home
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On July 13, 2018 at 16:08, imt said...
Tuck, Since I know you are a URC guy as well I assume its a TC2.0 driver? If so, |How does the driver work and easily work for the matrix/source selection?

The premade driver from URC is a 6x6 so that or anything less it simply works and works very easily. HOWEVER, as it stands RIGHT NOW (this WILL change), its kinda bitch to build one of size. Keep in mind i make it more complicated than it needs to be as I want the name of the Room and the name of the Source IN the driver, this means I have to do some major editing and adding in the driver. I have always been forced to build from scratch, takes time. BUT, I did the EXACT same thing when I built a matrix driver. I could have use a prebuilt one, but then my macros simply said something like "source 1, TV 4". That always sucked IMO lol. I want my macro to say "Roku, Kitchen TV".

What we need a TCM! A module. One you simply put in the names OR EVEN BETTER a driver that builds itself by pulling the info DIRECTLY from the MoIP controller! SO possible. I think that will come.

In addition, all the OSD (on screen display, or text overlay), NONE of that is in the driver so must be customized. Again, takes a lot of time. A TCM or some sort of module is the answer. NO DOUBT. Snap really needs to step up here if they want to capture maximum market share. I believe they will. Maybe not fully automated, but something better than it is now. That said, it was impressive they already had some control manufacturers on board and had drivers ready for beta! That was nice.

My guess is the negative feedback will be from driver building. Its simply GOT to be made easier. The MoIP controller all ready has all the room names and source names so someone could build a module that extracts that info and populates it AUTOMATICALLY into a driver. That would be HUGE wow!

Last edited by Ranger Home on July 13, 2018 22:17.
Post 23 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 22:11
Ranger Home
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On July 13, 2018 at 16:30, Brad Humphrey said...
You know one has to be careful when using a brand new product (from any manufacture), it can bite you.

Aint that the truth! To many times beta testing becomes public beta lol.

On July 13, 2018 at 16:30, Brad Humphrey said...
With a 9x20 system installed and others running with no issues at all for months, that is certainly a good sign. And with your recommendation I certainly would be willing to try it.

Thats all anyone can do is try it and draw their own conclusions.

On July 13, 2018 at 16:30, Brad Humphrey said...
That JAP product you saw years ago at CEDIA, was their 1st generation. It was meant for digital signage and they thought they could just swap it over to residential with little change.

That's why I was sure to comment that it was YEARS ago and I assumed there was no way in hell it still looked that bad. Im confident it doesnt look bad or they would not have had the success they have had.
Post 24 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 22:13
Ranger Home
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On July 13, 2018 at 16:45, roddymcg said...
I would not put JAP in any project where I had to put my name on the final product.

Why is that? You see too much degradation? What do you not like about it? Thats a bit surprising to hear and I always hear rants and raves about JAP. Its always intrigued me particularly since it didn't have the HDMI nightmares as commonly as other solutions.
Post 25 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 22:22
Fins
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On July 13, 2018 at 22:05, Ranger Home said...
The premade driver from URC is a 6x6 so that or anything less it simply works and works very easily. HOWEVER, as it stands RIGHT NOW (this WILL change), its kinda bitch to build one of size. Keep in mind i make it more complicated than it needs to be as I want the name of the Room and the name of the Source IN the driver, this means I have to do some major editing and adding in the driver. I have always been forced to build from scratch, takes time. BUT, I did the EXACT same thing when I built a matrix driver. I could have use a prebuilt one, but then my macros simply said something like "source 1, TV 4". That always sucked IMO lol. I want my macro to say "Roku, Kitchen TV".

What we need a TCM! A module. One you simply put in the names OR EVEN BETTER a driver that builds itself by pulling the info DIRECTLY from the MoIP controller! SO possible. I think that will come.

In addition, all the OSD (on screen display, or text overlay), NONE of that is in the driver so must be customized. Again, takes a lot of time. A TCM or some sort of module is the answer. NO DOUBT. Snap really needs to step up here if they want to capture maximum market share. I believe they will. Maybe not fully automated, but something better than it is now. That said, it was impressive they already had some control manufacturers on board and had drivers ready for beta! That was nice.

My guess is the negative feedback will be from driver building. Its simply GOT to be made easier. The MoIP controller all ready has all the room names and source names so someone could build a module that extracts that info and populates it AUTOMATICALLY into a driver. That would be HUGE wow!

You need a real control system so you donít have to spend time rewriting drivers just to edit names
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 26 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 22:26
Ranger Home
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On July 13, 2018 at 22:22, Fins said...
You need a real control system so you donít have to spend time rewriting drivers just to edit names

Ya, I just ordered an Asian Pro system. Cant wait! :)
Post 27 made on Friday July 13, 2018 at 22:34
Ranger Home
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FYI, I worked hard to get on the beta team for this. My pitch was it could be tested on a relatively large system and that's where it needs to be put thru the wringer. I didn't get on the team because I was a Snap bitch, I know whats what some of you were thinking! lol.

You should have seen my cluster trying to get 8 sources and 16 displays on my old 8x8 matrix, and it wasn't even HDBaseT lol. That said, it DID work. :) This is SOOOO much better. And the RIGHT solution.
Post 28 made on Saturday July 14, 2018 at 11:30
ichbinbose
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On July 13, 2018 at 22:26, Ranger Home said...
Ya, I just ordered an Asian Pro system. Cant wait! :)

Lol
Post 29 made on Saturday July 14, 2018 at 12:32
jrainey
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On July 13, 2018 at 22:13, Ranger Home said...
Why is that? You see too much degradation? What do you not like about it? Thats a bit surprising to hear and I always hear rants and raves about JAP. Its always intrigued me particularly since it didn't have the HDMI nightmares as commonly as other solutions.

That because Roddy is DM or nothing at all....we mortals have to make do with lesser. I get it but the world is a big place and not all of use have access to enough jobs to the 1%
Jack Rainey - Full disclosure...reformed integrator, now mid-Atlantic manufacturers rep for: Integra, Paradigm, Anthem, Parasound, Atlona, LG TV's and Metra Home Theater...among others
Post 30 made on Saturday July 14, 2018 at 13:37
Ranger Home
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On July 14, 2018 at 12:32, jrainey said...
That because Roddy is DM or nothing at all....we mortals have to make do with lesser. I get it but the world is a big place and not all of use have access to enough jobs to the 1%

Likely a fair statement.
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