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You know you're an engineer if....
This thread has 38 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 30.
Post 16 made on Saturday June 9, 2018 at 10:16
highfigh
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On June 8, 2018 at 13:21, Ernie Gilman said...
Some engineer somewhere might argue with this conclusion by saying that if there were three buses, then each bus would have to have 47 2/3 people on it... and that would just be inhumane. There is always some rounding off between the world of the engineer and the world of... the world!

In the "Is the cup half full, or half empty?" question, the engineer decides that the cup is twice as large as needed.

They could use a short bus, but nobody would want to ride in that one.

That's a hard lesson to learn. We have to think about what they're going to do with the information, and be sure that it's what WE want to do with the information! My go-to shelf width is 24" since most components can be slid forward and rotated for wire access on a 24" wide shelf. Obviously I usually don't get that size shelf!

I don't read minds. Period. If anything goes wrong, it's not my fault due to any inability to do this. It's also not my job to know about things I have never touched. I worked at a house and a couple of days later, received a call about some electrical circuits that were dead. I was told "You must have done something". I should have lit her up and walked away, but I went back and checked into the problem. I found a dead circuit, so I reset the breaker and it wouldn't stay, so I went back into the room and unplugged everything- that worked, so I returned and started plugging things in again. As soon as I got to the old floor lamp, the breaker popped and I saw sparks at the plug. I unplugged it and it turned out that some pinhead had replaced the switch/bulb socket assembly without insulating the wires. And I must have done something, eh? Bitch.

Earlier experiences with cabinetmakers taught me that professions have their own concepts of things. This one cabinet guy referred to the left-right dimension of one shelf as its width, but he called the left-right dimension of another shelf its length. I asked him why. Turns out the first shelf was particle board and the second shelf was wood, and the dimension in line with wood grain is its length.

From that I worked this out: When you deal with a construction trade, be aware that there are three dimensions: height, length, width, depth, breadth, thickness, and gauge. Those are the three dimensions.

You forgot 'strong', 'short', 'proud' and 'shy', as in "1-3/4, strong", meaning 1-3/4 + a little extra, 'proud' means a little thicker than flush and 'weak' or 'shy' meaning the opposite of their counterpart.

I understand why the cabinetmaker (loose term, after seeing the cabinet) might not have considered the space needed for the equipment- if you have done any drafting, you're dealing with some level of precision and if someone is ONLY thinking in terms of the finish dimensions of what he's making, that's the only dimensions that are important- they aren't responsible for anything else- it needs to fit the available space, it needs to be in the shape required, doors and drawers need to fit with a consistent gap and they need to open/close without touching the frame in a way that causes binding or rubbing the finish.

However, there's no freaking excuse for cabinets having no extra space. If the AVR had to go in this cabinet, I would have torn the guy a new one but as it is, I had concluded that he's not as good as he seems to think because his answer to my request to recessing the back panel was "I wouldn't know how to do that.". He showed that he knows how to make the proper cuts for that, but he did it wrong. He left so little material behind the panel that it crumbled when someone grabbed it- the procedure for what I wanted is the same, other than cutting the dado farther from the back edge. 

I learned from that one to always say "left-right" or "up-down" or "front-back." An "up-down" dimension of something below a reference point could be called depth, but a "front-back" dimension of a shelf opening could also be called depth.

Rough depth, or finish depth? 
Another cabinetmaker made a cabinet wide enough for two components to sit side by side, but it a center post made the openings not wide enough for even one standard width component to be inserted straight in from the front. There was a shelf, but it also could not go straight in. He made that "work" by making the shelf in two pieces, a front half and a back half.

The reason this pissed me off so much is that I have been a woodworker since I was a kid and have made a lot of things that had a specific purpose, so cutting so close to the existing equipment means that it's possible for the cabinet to be useless when the equipment is changed. With some devices being made smaller on a regular basis, he's probably safe, but it doesn't change the fact that his focus wasn't on the requirements, it was on the small parts. I did a job and the cabinetmaker actually called me to ask what I needed for the equipment space and even asked if I wanted slots cut into the shelves, for cooling. I was dumbfounded.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 17 made on Saturday June 9, 2018 at 10:34
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On June 8, 2018 at 19:23, Trunk-Slammer -Supreme said...
Ernie, I had a similar issue with a brick mason that was building a firepace surround, where the panel was to fit between two brick columns.

It didn't matter to him that the Pioneer PDP was such and such wide, it only mattered that the brick was such and such wide.

He started laying the brick the way HE wanted and not what was needed.

Builder had to get involved and instruct him to set the brick in whatever manner it took to have the panel fit (in not so nice terms).

Turned out fine, but it was a battle time after time.

I worked at a house that was undergoing a major remodel, structural repairs and new cabinets- the works. The builder is the type who makes suggestions in a way that the homeowner almost things it was their idea, so an new deck became part of the project. The builder also doesn't like to work under contract. People are getting hosed. Anyway, the landscaper had installed a new brick wall around the perimeter of where the new deck was going, after the old deck was removed. after this was done, the builder's guys built the deck, complete with a gap that started at about 1/2" and increased as it approached the far end and then, convinced the homeowner, who has a degree in architecture & urban planning, that the landscaper's wall isn't level. I was told about this and when I returned, I sighted down the top edge and saw that it was dead flat. When I put my level on it, it was dead level, to the limits of my level. I reminded her that masons invented the level.

It would have never been noticed if the builder's guy had thought to make it LOOK good. If it was a little off.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
OP | Post 18 made on Saturday June 9, 2018 at 12:39
Ernie Gilman
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highfigh,
just as you don't read minds, the cabinet guys don't read minds. They think they're asking a question that will define the opening you need. You think they're asking... what? Someone has to define what extra space is needed, and it should have been both you AND the cabinet guy. If you've got a guy pulling wire for you, do you tell him how much should hang down from the ceiling, or do you let him possibly just run the wire two inches into the room? When I'm working with someone else, I tell him how long the wire should be in the room, even if it's the same guy I worked with last week. Read the part of my signature about communication.

It's simply something I've learned: people speak about what they understand. The cabinet guy wants stuff to fit, so he asks how big it would be. We know how big our stuff is, so we tell him. The reality is that both we and the cabinetmaker are at fault if neither one of us recognizes that extra space is needed. I mean, nobody's going to want a cabinet where the components will fit if you grease their sides and shove them in.

If you have a receiver that's 6 1/2" high and the cabinet guy asks how tall the (oops, TALL, there's another dimension) receiver is, will you tell him 6 1/2" or will you think about how much air space you need above it and tell him you need ten inches clear?

That's another one -- tell him CLEAR to get him to think about whether something he's building will get in the way of the dimension you're calling out. and yes, I learned this by getting too small of a space, and asking the cabinet guy what would have told him what I really needed.

Rough depth or finish depth? Finish depth. I am not going to specify what the cabinetmaker does when he's halfway through his process. I'll specify the dimension at the end of the process. And now you've taught me to say "finish depth."

Re your electrical circuit issue, we're working, on and off, on a 1930s house right now. A camera that had been working stopped working some time ago, but the camera system was apart so we didn't notice when it happened. We determined that the flooring guys cut the wire when they redid a floor, so walls and floor have to be opened if that's to be fixed. We were able to locate the hidden end of the wire with our toners, so we KNOW what happened.

As for strong or short, those are descriptions of how exact to be. They're not names of the actual dimension. I was going for the "wide" of a dimension, not "how wide." I did forget "tall," though, and I've been quoting that for a dozen years! Also, words like that should NEVER be used because they hand the cabinet guy an excuse for any dimensional mistake he makes. What if his concept of strong or short isn't identical to yours? NEVER give approximate dimensions!!!! Again, read my signature. That's my signature because I find communicating to be crucial and difficult, even when we think we are being totally clear.

The reason this pissed me off so much -- What was it that pissed you off? The bold print makes it look like you're pissed off, but you're not actually SHOUTING... but after all the things you wrote, I can't tell what "it" is.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 19 made on Sunday June 10, 2018 at 18:56
highfigh
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If a cabinetmaker doesn't know that they need to ask questions, they should do something else. I told him I needed room to move the equipment in order to make the connections, that the connections shouldn't be cramped at the rear and that I would like holes cut in the back panel, at specific places. Didn't get the holes, either. "This turd said I should be able to have it here by the first week of December". That was in October and it finally arrived in late April, but it needed to be painted and that took six freaking weeks.

I could see your point if the guy had received dimensions from us, but he saw, touched and measured the GD equipment! It's as if he has never done anything with this stuff.

Clearly. It's an adverb and I told him, clearly, what I needed. I got none of it. No recessed back to allow space for the cabling, no holes to pass them through. Then, he drilled the holes for the shelf pins about an inch from the front and rear, which makes sliding the shelf forward a big problem. Oh, and I also asked for a U-shaped cutout at the rear edge of the shelves, to allow the cables to pass between levels. Nope. He even wrote something on his pad as I spoke, but it may not have been what I was saying. I think he was playing Hangman, or something.

Bold type isn't shouting, ALL CAPITOL LETTERS IS SHOUTING! I would think you would know that by now. I answered your comments separately and immediately below to make it easier to read, rather than use the same font, size and color. Was that not clear?
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
OP | Post 20 made on Sunday June 10, 2018 at 19:32
Ernie Gilman
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On June 10, 2018 at 18:56, highfigh said...
If a cabinetmaker doesn't know that they need to ask questions, they should do something else.

Well, Laugh Out Loud. If an installer doesn't know that he needs to guarantee that he's going to get the dimensions he needs, he should do something else. You're talking about the cabinetmaker making assumptions about how to use the numbers he is given. I'm talking about the CI making assumptions about how the cabinetmaker is going to use the numbers you give him.

I told him I needed room to move the equipment in order to make the connections, that the connections shouldn't be cramped at the rear and that I would like holes cut in the back panel, at specific places. Didn't get the holes, either.

No cabinetmaker has moved the equipment to make connections, so he needs help from someone who has. That's you: you know how big that "room" should be. I cannot understand how you can see it any differently. How the HELL can he make decisions about things he has not done and has not seen?

"This turd said I should be able to have it here by the first week of December". That was in October and it finally arrived in late April, but it needed to be painted and that took six freaking weeks.

A similar situation made a client say "screw it -- you design the cabinet." I designed it, the GC had construction guys make it, and it came out almost okay. They used black waterbase paint, which took about two weeks to harden (but didn't have any volatile components ! ! ). I made a mistake at the interface between the speaker portion of the cabinet and the doors covering the equipment. All in all, though, it works.

I could see your point if the guy had received dimensions from us, but he saw, touched and measured the GD equipment! It's as if he has never done anything with this stuff.

ASS umptions, still.

Clearly. It's an adverb and I told him, clearly, what I needed. I got none of it. No recessed back to allow space for the cabling, no holes to pass them through. Then, he drilled the holes for the shelf pins about an inch from the front and rear, which makes sliding the shelf forward a big problem.

You have to design in a way for the shelves not to slide and drop the components.
Oh, and I also asked for a U-shaped cutout at the rear edge of the shelves, to allow the cables to pass between levels. Nope.

What BS. Did you tell him particular dimensions?
He even wrote something on his pad as I spoke, but it may not have been what I was saying. I think he was playing Hangman, or something.

Bold type isn't shouting, ALL CAPITOL LETTERS IS SHOUTING! I would think you would know that by now.

I didn't say you were shouting. Read this again:
The reason this pissed me off so much -- What was it that pissed you off? The bold print makes it look like you're pissed off, but you're not actually SHOUTING... but after all the things you wrote, I can't tell what "it" is.

I specifically say you were not shouting. So, yeah, I know that by now.

I answered your comments separately and immediately below to make it easier to read, rather than use the same font, size and color. Was that not clear?

I've found that
a pipe

as part of a quote
sets off a quotation from the original post text. There's no need for Bold Print.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 21 made on Monday June 11, 2018 at 08:21
highfigh
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On June 10, 2018 at 19:32, Ernie Gilman said...
No cabinetmaker has moved the equipment to make connections, so he needs help from someone who has. That's you: you know how big that "room" should be. I cannot understand how you can see it any differently. How the HELL can he make decisions about things he has not done and has not seen?

Bullcrap! No cabinetmaker has ever moved equipment to make connections? That's absolute bullshyte! You think they all hire CI people to do this crap for them? c

A similar situation made a client say "screw it -- you design the cabinet." I designed it, the GC had construction guys make it, and it came out almost okay. They used black waterbase paint, which took about two weeks to harden (but didn't have any volatile components ! ! ). I made a mistake at the interface between the speaker portion of the cabinet and the doors covering the equipment. All in all, though, it works.

Designing cabinetry involves the finish, so yeah, you also made a mistake there- you left that to house painters, not furniture painters. I offered to make the AV cabinet for the 3rd floor system for the same client and they had the guy doing the trim build it. That paint still sticks to the feet of the equipment, eight years later. This time, I told the client that it should be painted with pre-cat lacquer after hearing that the shelves would be painted, but the cabinet guy used pre-finished plywood and MDF for the raised panels, so that particular problem was avoided. The painter did a great job- the finish is beautiful but two weeks after I installed the equipment, we're still waiting for cabinet boy to install the drawers and doors.


You have to design in a way for the shelves not to slide and drop the components.

I have to design that? Again, bullshyte! However, if I had designed this cabinet, none of the problems would have arisen and it sure as hell wouldn't have taken 7 months. I could have whittled a cabinet faster than that. It's a Euro-style cabinet with raised panel sides, a few shelves & drawers and no face frame, so it racks when someone lifts it by any corner, even after he said it would be very stiff. He screwed it together- it's basically a shop-made flat pack that could have come from Ikea. I would have used a face frame and it would have been far more rigid- the floor in that room isn't flat and we talked about how to level the cabinet- I mentioned Euro-style leveling feet and he put blocks of wood. Really made a nice attempt.


What BS. Did you tell him particular dimensions?

Yes, I told him the relief at the back of the shelves should be 2" deep x 6" long. It's pretty easy to do that with a template and router. Very clean cut, too.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 22 made on Monday June 11, 2018 at 08:22
highfigh
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There- is that better, or do you want the spacing to be more even?
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
OP | Post 23 made on Thursday July 5, 2018 at 23:48
Ernie Gilman
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Another thread ([Link: remotecentral.com]) contained an additional word for the list.
On June 8, 2018 at 13:21, Ernie Gilman said...
From that I worked this out: When you deal with a construction trade, be aware that there are three dimensions: height, length, width, depth, breadth, thickness, span, and gauge. Those are the three dimensions.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 24 made on Saturday July 7, 2018 at 13:21
Ernie Gilman
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Here's a GREAT example of engineer-think. This is the kind of thinking that can drive some people batty, because it requires thinking about things that aren't happening. This has to do with the Kepler Telescope:

...the team knew that [a component failure] meant they were dealing with a potentially mission-threatening problem. "When the first reaction wheel failed, a few of us here and a few people at Ball Aerospace (who built Kepler) already started in the back of our minds kind of thinking ‘What if we lose another reaction wheel?’ You don't want to just throw away a relatively good, expensive telescope that can still do great science."
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 25 made on Saturday July 7, 2018 at 15:40
radiorhea
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On June 8, 2018 at 10:53, highfigh said...
I have an Astro van and I had heard nightmare stories about changing its spark plugs. If anyone asked if I had done that, I told them I haven't been drunk enough to want to. I asked about changing the plugs and wires in an Astro forum and one response was "Do a three inch lift and it's easy".

On a semi-related note, I have been waiting for a cabinet needed to house some equipment in the den of a job. I remember a math class word problem that was worded to find out how we understood what we read, or not. In the question, it referred to a field trip and a number of people, but the bus capacity wouldn't allow all of them to sit in a whole number of buses, so the teacher had to explain that in order for the 143 people to be seated when the capacity of each bus was 52, three were needed, not 2.75.

The cabinetmaker asked for the dimensions of the equipment and I now know that I should have told him the width I wanted, not the answer to his question. Sure enough, 17-1/4" equipment and 17-1/2" wide openings.

Yup,

I ALWAYS say I need X dimension "in the clear"
Drinking upstream from the herd since 1960
OP | Post 26 made on Saturday July 7, 2018 at 16:04
Ernie Gilman
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Right, Rhea. I got hung up on the aphorism aspect of this and forgot that I add "clear" whenever some dolt might think I mean center to center. If I mean that, I say center to center, but I still sometimes worry that it's not heard.

I'm still floored by a 36" shelf being 36" wide if it's particle board but 36" long if it's wood with a grain. I suppose plywood isn't counted as having a grain for these purposes....
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 27 made on Sunday July 8, 2018 at 10:11
highfigh
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On July 7, 2018 at 16:04, Ernie Gilman said...
Right, Rhea. I got hung up on the aphorism aspect of this and forgot that I add "clear" whenever some dolt might think I mean center to center. If I mean that, I say center to center, but I still sometimes worry that it's not heard.

I'm still floored by a 36" shelf being 36" wide if it's particle board but 36" long if it's wood with a grain. I suppose plywood isn't counted as having a grain for these purposes....

If 'on center' or something else isn't mentioned, who's the dolt- the person who omitted it or the one who inferred/assumed it? If you mean something that might be misinterpreted or left to assumption, write or say it- it's part of writing specifications.

Doesn't need to be considered as having 'grain' since using wood that's glued across the grain and cut so its long grain constitutes the depth doesn't work. Even if the piece is square and only the long grain is supported some wood will bend easily and some will break without much of a load.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
OP | Post 28 made on Sunday July 8, 2018 at 21:06
Ernie Gilman
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On July 8, 2018 at 10:11, highfigh said...
Doesn't need to be considered as having 'grain' since using wood that's glued across the grain and cut so its long grain constitutes the depth doesn't work. Even if the piece is square and only the long grain is supported some wood will bend easily and some will break without much of a load.

I see here something that hints at how you and I disagree on some things: it's the point of view.

I say that a cabinetmaker calls the direction of the grain in a piece of wood its "length" while the same direction in particle board, which has no grain, is its "width."

You say "Doesn't need to be considered as having 'grain' since...."

The starting point here was that the cabinetmaker IS TALKING ABOUT WOOD WITH GRAIN. The ideas flow from that starting point. Grain is an obvious and necessary property of the material under discussion. Thus "grain" has to be taken into account if it matters. It matters to the cabinetmaker.

Frankly, then, I don't know what you're talking about.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 29 made on Monday July 9, 2018 at 14:28
BizarroTerl
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You know you're an engineer when a political discussion starts and your brain goes into lock mode with the onslaught of totally illogical "logic".

BTW - RPN stands for reverse polish notation.
Post 30 made on Monday July 9, 2018 at 14:59
highfigh
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On July 8, 2018 at 21:06, Ernie Gilman said...
I see here something that hints at how you and I disagree on some things: it's the point of view.

I say that a cabinetmaker calls the direction of the grain in a piece of wood its "length" while the same direction in particle board, which has no grain, is its "width."

You say "Doesn't need to be considered as having 'grain' since...."

The starting point here was that the cabinetmaker IS TALKING ABOUT WOOD WITH GRAIN. The ideas flow from that starting point. Grain is an obvious and necessary property of the material under discussion. Thus "grain" has to be taken into account if it matters. It matters to the cabinetmaker.

Frankly, then, I don't know what you're talking about.

The shelves are plywood, so my point about no direction stands. Those dimensions, which are close to square, would be 'width' and 'depth'. If the shelf is long and shallow, they would be referred to as 'length and depth', but some support wold be needed for a long shelf because it will sag if a heavy object is placed in the center.

Width and length refer to the shorter and longer dimensions, respectively, regardless of material but not to the place where it fits. If a cabinet has an opening 36" wide, the board will need to be about 36" long in order for the grain to do its job of supporting the load, which fits your use of 'length'. An amorphous material like MDF, Particle Board, OSB or solid surface is agnostic WRT which way it's oriented unless it proves to be somewhat less forgiving in one of them. You could have a scrap that's at 45 degrees to the original panel's dimensions and it will work as well as if you had cut it by using the edges as a guide. Some stone materials are less forgiving, so it needs to be reinforced in some way. The grain of some wood species make them better for wide shelves and tops without multiple points of support from below because the inter-cellular bond is stronger and the way it's sawed is less important- if you try using quarter-sawn pine boards to make a deep shelf, it will need some support in the middle of the span- simple shelf pins won't support a heavy object that's placed in the middle because the board will crack across the thickness but if you use flat-sawn (also called 'plain-cut', 'plain sawn', etc'), it will be fine.

BTW- I posted about the delay in delivery of the cabinet quite a while ago- the guy still hasn't been back to install the drawers and doors. I don't know where they found this payaso, but if I hear that they paid a lot for this POS, I'm going ballistic, especially if he says that he was waiting for some specific material. Maybe he was waiting for his trained beaver's teeth to grow back after hitting a nail.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
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