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Topic:
First Commercial Job
This thread has 16 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Saturday March 31, 2018 at 18:15
Krassyg
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Dealing with a small(8 room) Hotel/Restaurant in Long Island and I need to supply a sound system. Never dealt with commercial audio before; can you guys recommend online training for commercial sound? I went through the Harman one already; looking for more advance material when it comes to the design of the system.
Post 2 made on Saturday March 31, 2018 at 19:03
Dave in Balto
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What distributors do you use? I know guys like Capitol offer commercial design help.

What products do you use? What are the project needs? Budget?
Hey, careful man, there's a beverage here!

The Dude
Post 3 made on Saturday March 31, 2018 at 19:11
Fins
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Maybe you should tell us more about the needs of the project. Is it just music in common areas? Or something more complex like coverage in the individual hotel rooms?
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 4 made on Saturday March 31, 2018 at 19:21
Ernie Gilman
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Don't think about using ANY consumer preamps or amps. They are not right for what's needed. If you use, say, a DirecTV receiver for the audio of a TV channel, the two channels will need to be mixed to mono.

Yes, the system will be mono. It will be 70 volt. 70 volt is not at all difficult to work with. It's just a different way to look at output power, speaker impedance, and balancing of volume.

It might be good for you to ask specific questions here in addition to looking for "more advanced" material.

You'll need to look into a licensed music source. The venue could get fined for using music that's not licensed.

Think seriously with the client about where the zone volume controls will go. They could just adjust the loudness of the sound, or, as some JBL product does, the volume control could be a device that adjusts volume in each zone as well as selecting the input for each zone.

DO NOT think that it will sound bad because it's 70 volt. Good 70 volt speakers sound good. We have the concept that 70V is crap because we were introduced to 70V systems via supermarkets, or gas stations with outdoor horns, where as much as ten bucks might have been spent on each speaker. Ten bucks doesn't buy quality in any kind of speaker. Check with Fred's favorite supplier about that. They can help.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 5 made on Saturday March 31, 2018 at 19:44
radiorhea
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On March 31, 2018 at 19:21, Ernie Gilman said...
Don't think about using ANY consumer preamps or amps. They are not right for what's needed. If you use, say, a DirecTV receiver for the audio of a TV channel, the two channels will need to be mixed to mono.

Yes, the system will be mono. It will be 70 volt. 70 volt is not at all difficult to work with. It's just a different way to look at output power, speaker impedance, and balancing of volume.

IT SURE AS HELL DOESN'T HAVE TO BE 70 VOLT.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE DUDE.

I use a Zektor preamp, sonance amps, sonance does make great quality commercial speakers for all applications.

Ain't none of it mono and my systems sound great and kick ass.
Drinking upstream from the herd since 1960
Post 6 made on Saturday March 31, 2018 at 20:01
FreddyFreeloader
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Yeah Ernie he said “small” therefore there shouldn’t be any long wire runs. Isn’t that partly the purpose of 70v?
Post 7 made on Saturday March 31, 2018 at 21:12
buzz
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krassyg,

I’m assuming that a major function of this system is for background music. I strongly recommend that you use a “processor”, such as the dBx 1260. A 1260 will be the heart of your system, providing functions such as compression, limiting, equalization, remote input selection, remote volume, and microphone precedence (talk over the music). To a home audio freak, the processor will seem like an unnecessary expense, but in my opinion a processor is required in a restaurant system. If the restaurant owner’s expert friend nixes the processor, I’ll walk away from the job. While you might not want compression at home, a restaurant is a very noisy place and the compressor will allow you to run at a lower volume while retaining musical details that will otherwise be lost in the restaurant din.

The processor will also protect you from the restaurant’s greatest hazard — the cleanup crew. The cleanup crew will push the Volume way past “11” and eventually break something. Without the processor this will happen over and over. The 1260 is setup with a laptop, then locked. At this point the crew, even if they attempt to attack the system from the front panel, cannot push the system out of its safe zone.
Post 8 made on Saturday March 31, 2018 at 23:05
gerard143
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I kind of agree on mono. Most ceiling speakers aren't wide dispersion. If they are placed any kind of decent distance apart you can lose a lot of the sound in some stereo tracks or it just sounds off because you aren't hearing it all. Ceiling speakers tend to be pretty directional and beam sound straight down and not very wide so this further compounds the problem. Some models with wide array tweeters can help eliminate the issue and let you run stereo but really in this application mono is gonna be good enough. No ones ever gonna be like man this $hit is in mono not stereo but they will notice if its in stereo and sound that should be there is missing.
Post 9 made on Saturday March 31, 2018 at 23:07
gerard143
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On March 31, 2018 at 21:12, buzz said...
krassyg,

I’m assuming that a major function of this system is for background music. I strongly recommend that you use a “processor”, such as the dBx 1260. A 1260 will be the heart of your system, providing functions such as compression, limiting, equalization, remote input selection, remote volume, and microphone precedence (talk over the music). To a home audio freak, the processor will seem like an unnecessary expense, but in my opinion a processor is required in a restaurant system. If the restaurant owner’s expert friend nixes the processor, I’ll walk away from the job. While you might not want compression at home, a restaurant is a very noisy place and the compressor will allow you to run at a lower volume while retaining musical details that will otherwise be lost in the restaurant din.

The processor will also protect you from the restaurant’s greatest hazard — the cleanup crew. The cleanup crew will push the Volume way past “11” and eventually break something. Without the processor this will happen over and over. The 1260 is setup with a laptop, then locked. At this point the crew, even if they attempt to attack the system from the front panel, cannot push the system out of its safe zone.

This is good advice.
Post 10 made on Sunday April 1, 2018 at 00:57
Ernie Gilman
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On March 31, 2018 at 19:44, radiorhea said...
IT SURE AS HELL DOESN'T HAVE TO BE 70 VOLT.

No, it doesn't. That just gives you the most flexibility and nobody will ever be sitting under half of the music and you won't have to put a pair of speakers in each bathroom with one over the toilets and one over the sink giving a sweet spot on top of the panel and in the larger rooms 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11 speakers are all equally valid numbers of speakers to mount and you can use the taps to equalize the volume of speakers in adjacent ceilings of different heights. You don't have to have all that capability.
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE DUDE.

I did. Thanks.
I use a Zektor preamp, sonance amps, sonance does make great quality commercial speakers for all applications.

Yes they do. But Sonance knows that 8 ohm is not the best for commercial installations, so they provide 70 volt and 100 volt settings. Or... why do they?

Ain't none of it mono and my systems sound great and kick ass.

A system doesn't have to be stereo to "sound great and kick ass." Go listen to Nobu in Malibu. I'll leave it at that.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 11 made on Sunday April 1, 2018 at 03:45
buzz
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70V, 4, 8, 16 Ohms, or whatever, it’s the same physics, but multi speaker system design and maintenance is much easier if one uses the 70V math.
Post 12 made on Sunday April 1, 2018 at 10:00
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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All the underlying physics is the same for everything in this universe so that's not really an enlightening statement. At the level of application it's not exactly the same physics because the approach is different. And you have to understand the approach to see how simple the 70V math is.

With 8 ohm speakers, you have to have loads in the range of 4 to 16 ohms, though most would say it has to be just 8 ohms. Each power amp channel has the same load (more or less).

With a 70V system, the transformer taps are used to choose how much power goes to each speaker and the system will be okay as long as the total power determined this way doesn't exceed the available power.

Both approaches can survive even if very poorly designed, if you simply don't turn up the volume enough to reach the limits of abuse of the amplifiers. That doesn't mean that someone making such a system would understand it, though. This is true for 8 ohm as well as 70 volt systems.

For instance, a studio "sound guy" installed a system in a man's home that had one beefy SAE two-channel amplifier designed for 8 ohm loads. It had six 8 ohm Mortronics volume controls, each feeding a pair of 8 ohm speakers. He accidentally helped this system survive by wiring it with individual pairs of phone wire. The amp lasted almost twenty years before it died.

You can do all sorts of wrong things and have stuff survive if you don't happen to exceed the limits. But that's really another topic.

At some point, trying to use consumer electronics to drive 8 ohm speakers directly will bite you in the ass.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 13 made on Sunday April 1, 2018 at 10:23
highfigh
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On April 1, 2018 at 00:57, Ernie Gilman said...

"But Sonance knows that 8 ohm is not the best for commercial installations, so they provide 70 volt and 100 volt settings. Or... why do they?"

Because they want a piece of the commercial action.

Last edited by highfigh on April 1, 2018 10:31.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 14 made on Sunday April 1, 2018 at 10:31
highfigh
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On April 1, 2018 at 10:00, Ernie Gilman said...
With a 70V system, the transformer taps are used to choose how much power goes to each speaker and the system will be okay as long as the total power determined this way doesn't exceed the available power.

You can do all sorts of wrong things and have stuff survive if you don't happen to exceed the limits. But that's really another topic.

At some point, trying to use consumer electronics to drive 8 ohm speakers directly will bite you in the ass.

If the restaurant owner is made to understand why something should be done in specific ways, the system doesn't need to fail- the easy way to do this is by making it impossible for the resident "expert" to adjust ANYTHING other than what has been made available. ZonePro does that very well and it limits the number of sources, too. Could be 8 Ohm, could be 70V- that's up to the system designer but with level controls on amplifiers, DSP for compression/limiting/EQ/crossover- there's no good reason for 8 Ohm speakers and amps to bite anyone, anywhere.

The best question I have ever heard from a bar owner who was being pitched on a new audio system- "Will I make more money if I do this?". Remember that and use it to make the client understand that you want them to never call you for repairs because a system that's not working will be very conspicuous.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 15 made on Sunday April 1, 2018 at 12:42
buzz
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When wearing my audiophile hat, I'm not very keen on the matching transformers used in typical 70V systems. These are not premium transformers and they limit the sound quality. But, one must focus on the ultimate goal of the system -- providing a pleasant dining experience. In my opinion, there is very little benefit in attempting to deliver audiophile quality to a restaurant dining room. Regardless of the 8-Ohm or 70V mindset, using ceiling mount speakers (of any quality) is not the way to deliver audiophile sound. The overall goal is to deliver competent audio quality from a system that is utterly reliable. And, inexperienced staff should be able to operate the system.

If there will be live entertainment, system design is a bit more complicated because the the system may need to interact with the musician's equipment and speaker placement will be more critical.
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