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Topic:
Fixing lip sync issue
This thread has 18 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 15:59
james_aa
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Ive got a setup like this : HDMI sources (satalite TV box & Apple TV) ---> matrix ---> TV (sony 9000 series 2017 model) ---> optical out of TV via optical over cat6 balun ---> AVR (yamaha 670) in rack ---> surround sound speakers.

This works well, but there is a lip sync problem. The AVR has a lip sync adjust but only allows me to add further delay to the audio, rather subtracting the delay.

Any ideas how i could address this lip sync issue ?
Post 2 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 16:42
Soundsgood
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Use an HDMI de-embedder and break out the audio before sending the signal to the TV. Something like this [Link: metrahometheater.com]
Post 3 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 17:36
Craig Aguiar-Winter
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Is the issue on all sources?
Is there still an issue if you are using the TV speakers only (take the AVR out of the equation).

You need to lock down the source of the delay before you can decide where to implement a sollution.

Where are the sources located in relation to the TV and the AVR?
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 4 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 17:56
BobL
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+1 on Soundsgood method

or

Source > Matrix > Receiver > HDMI extender > TV
Post 5 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 19:39
Fins
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Feed the matrix into the AVR then go from the AVR to the tv. It will also reduce audio synch problems
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Post 6 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 20:38
Ranger Home
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the receiver is delaying the audio as its processing. Like others said, feed the matrix to the avr first, then to tv.

you may be able to fix some of the issue by putting the avr in direct mode or stereo mode, less processing, less delay. but thats not a permanent solution.
Post 7 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 21:12
Brad Humphrey
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On January 31, 2018 at 16:42, Soundsgood said...
Use an HDMI de-embedder and break out the audio before sending the signal to the TV. Something like this [Link: metrahometheater.com]

So then why have a surround sound system installed, if you are not going to have surround sound.
There is no HDMI de-embedder (at least none currently on the market) that can transcode surround sound from most streaming services or anything in DD+ format and up. Which is most content these days. All he will get is 2ch PCM when that content is played.
It is a problem we desperately need a black box for these days but no manufacture seems to want to make. You can buy a $199 A/V receiver that can do this, so I don't understand why we can't get a black box to do it with a S/PDIF output for at least the same price or less.


Fins idea is the best and how it should be always be done - run the output from the matrix to the receiver 1st, then output that to the TV. The only way this doesn't work for the customer, is if he insist on using the apps built into the TV.
And if that is the case then rules have been broken - NEVER use the f^n apps built into the TV... EVER!!! It is just a bad, bad, bad thing to do. And no money excuse since any dedicated streaming device is so cheap (Roku, AppleTV, Fire stick, etc.).
Post 8 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 23:27
Ernie Gilman
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If you have an AVR and only two sources, why do you have a matrix? Run your two sources into the AVR.

Do you have more sources? Are you describing only part of the system?
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 9 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 23:37
Fins
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On January 31, 2018 at 23:27, Ernie Gilman said...
If you have an AVR and only two sources, why do you have a matrix? Run your two sources into the AVR.

Do you have more sources? Are you describing only part of the system?

He probably has more tvs that don’t have AVRs with them
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 10 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 23:52
Brad Humphrey
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Ernie, I know all the info wasn't given. But in this situation, I think it would be OK to assume there are other TVs, in other rooms involved. Otherwise a matrix would make no sense being in the system.
Post 11 made on Thursday February 1, 2018 at 02:37
dunnersfella
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Just check that your Yamaha AVR is set to lip sync and not audio sync... it's part of the MusicCast functionality.
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OP | Post 12 made on Thursday February 1, 2018 at 07:05
james_aa
Regular Member
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Hi All

To clarify the system has 8 HDMI sources in total distributed to 4 rooms via an HDbaseT matrix. (its a 8x4 model)

The reason we've brought the audio from the TV back to the AVR via the TV is that there is no additional output or inputs on the matrix so we cant go from matrix output to avr to matrix input (or extender).

Alternatively is there such thing as a video sync unit which could delay the video stream so that we could bring it back in line with the audio ? Do some TVs have something like this built in ?
Post 13 made on Thursday February 1, 2018 at 07:54
BobL
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If your matrix only has HDBaseT output and no HDMI outputs you will have to use the HDBaseT receiver and connect it the AVR. Even if they are only a couple feet away. Then use a different HDMI extender to the TV with its own transmitter/receiver. I don't think there is anyway to get around going to the AVR first.
Post 14 made on Thursday February 1, 2018 at 09:40
Craig Aguiar-Winter
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On February 1, 2018 at 07:05, james_aa said...
Hi All

To clarify the system has 8 HDMI sources in total distributed to 4 rooms via an HDbaseT matrix. (its a 8x4 model)

The reason we've brought the audio from the TV back to the AVR via the TV is that there is no additional output or inputs on the matrix so we cant go from matrix output to avr to matrix input (or extender).

Alternatively is there such thing as a video sync unit which could delay the video stream so that we could bring it back in line with the audio ? Do some TVs have something like this built in ?

Why would you need to go from the matrix into the AVR, then back to the matrix? If it's to be able to use the HDBT run to the TV then Bob L is correct. The matrix allows all sources to be used on all outputs there for you only need to run to the AVR and then on to the TV.

Three rooms are Matrix to TV, the other is Matrix-AVR-TV. This eliminates your digital audio extender back to the AVR.

As others have pointed out it's the best way. Instead of spending money on fixing a problem, spend money on not creating it in the first place.
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 15 made on Thursday February 1, 2018 at 12:22
Nexsen B. Johnson
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Your problem is very likely the audio delay Sony adds to compensate for the inherent video delay. Unfortunately manufacturers like Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, etc. "automatically" add an audio delay to not only their internal speakers but to their optical audio output as well to offset their TV's video delay. And unlike Samsung, Vizio, etc they don't give the user any option to turn it off.

As others have suggested sending the matrix output to the AVR "first" bypassing the TV might solve that issue BUT it "won't" if your equipment supports HDMI's auto lip-sync correction feature unless you turn OFF auto lip-sync correction.

That optional HDMI feature does not do what most think. It does NOT correct lip-sync! It has no idea how out of sync your signals may be. All it does is "automatically" add a fixed delay to cancel the fixed video delay of a TV. Almost all Av receivers have had that ability (to add a fixed delay) for at least 10 years so that feature simply does "automatically" what you could have done "one time" manually through an audio menu in perhaps a minute or two. It is a total joke as far as correcting lip-sync and in your case will deny access to the inherent video delay which might be able to correct your problem. It effectively would add back the audio delay you are trying to avoid.

Reason: The way it works (auto lip-sync correction) is like plug and play for computers: During the HDMI EDID session each sink device passes it's capabilities to the source devices and the source can only send a signal that ALL downstream devices can accept. Audio latency is one such parameter that "optionally" is exchanged if a device supports the feature.

Your Sony TV for example might report a video latency of 80 ms for progressive or 96 ms for interlaced signals and your AVR would automatically add 80 or 96 ms audio delay.

If that happens you will be right back where you started so you need to be sure auto lip-sync correction is turned OFF.

It won't work for your complex system with the matrix switcher but I normally recommend taking each source's audio directly to your AV receiver or sound bar to bypass the TV for two reasons: One, it will eliminate the TV's ability to delay the audio, and two, it will allow your AV receiver to receive surround sound which it otherwise won't get unless the TV supports Dolby pass through. Your Sony does but ironically most TV's that do support Dolby passthrough are the ones that add the audio delay you can't change.

Many users "think" their Samsung TV's which don't support Dolby passthrough can accept Dolby surround on its HDMI imputs but it will only be stereo due to the EDID negtitation in which the TV requests stereo . They are confused because the packaging and literature states "Dolby Digital" but that will only come from the TV's internal sources such as its tuner and streaming service and NOT its HDMI inputs. It is amazing how few users who actually own these TV's realize they aren't getting surround sound from their DVD or BluRay player if those HDMi sources go to the TV first and its optical output goes to their sound bar.

Anyway, good luck, resolving your problem. No company makes a consumer product to delay video. The companies who make lip-sync correction products such as Alchemy2, Felston, Primare etc. all delay digital audio via a hand held remote as the assumption is that your TV's video delay will be in the 50 to 100 ms range. That gives you a negative adjustment of that 50 to 100 ms inherent video delay but TV's like Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba deprive you of that negative adjustment by adding the audio delay even when you don't need it. Just like HDMI's auto lip-sync correction feature which again adds the delay requested through the EDID whether you need it or not which often makes lip-sync error worse than if left uncorrected.

I route audio from my HDMI sources directly to my Felston DD740 which has 4 inputs and on to my soundbar and "usually" the 80 ms video delay from my TV in conjunction with my DD740's 680 ms audio delay gives me enough adjustment to correct lip-sync. The range is -80 to +600 ms but even that might not correct cases where the signals arrive with over 80 ms audio delay already present.

Also some audio systems delay audio. Sonos about 30 ms which can usually be cancelled by the TV's inherent video delay but not if the manufacturer imposes the audio delay like you are seeing. Devialet speakers add over 150 ms audio delay and that can't be corrected unless you happen to have one of those 4K TV projectors that I'm told have over 300 ms video delay.

Ironically the manufacturers have worked hard to speed up their video processing and have reduced it from 100+ ms to as little as 40 or 50 ms in some cases but consumers are FAR better off with large video delays alloing them to adjust an audio delay since that can correct the rare cases where the audio arrives already delayed.
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